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Actually forget that noise. I dont have to conjecture about this stuff, I can just go outside and test shit out. That's what i'll be doing on wednesdays and fridays, get my heavy 3RM set (FS or BS depending on the day) and then do a bunch of technique work with the opposite exercise (FS if heavy BS on that day, or BS if heavy FS).

I might need more thoractic mobility. knees breaking first is fine on HBBS it gives me a lot of benefits  but why should my chest start to incline as a downside? That could be a mobility issue somewhere.

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The problem is, as I try this out now with a PVC pipe as my bar, when you break first at the knees, that's fine. But if the bar doesn't go forward that actually places a lot of stress on the knees. And that's with unweighted squats! Imagine what happens with weighted ones.  So the body reacts by unlocking at the hips and inclining at the waist. Now the load isn't on the knees. Which is good. But the bar path  is now ahead of midfoot. Perhaps i'm looking at this wrong by trying to maintain a strict vertical bar path. maybe I can bring bar back into midfoot as I go descend. Although that sounds incorrect.... :/

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hmm, so if I break first at the knees and try to hold bar position it over-stresses the knees. But suppose I break first at the knees but hold the weight on the heels? Perhaps this will allow the best of both worlds.. will explore that further.

True but you can still learn a few things just have to be careful about your conclusions. Like if you're forward of midfoot unweighted, well, adding weight will shift the weight even further. So that's a useful diagnostic. I'm learning more by doing unweighted stuff than anything I do with weight. The final judge is weighted heavy of course cause that's what matters in the end. But to fix technique it's ok to take the simplest system available (unweighted) since there are less variables to consider!

Jst did a quick google search of images showing olympic squats back and front.

The only pics where the knees even come close to that far forward is in a front squat.  Even then most front squats dont have the knees that far forward. 

My question is why do you want to back squat like that?

The first back squat image is almost impossible to attain UNLESS you are front squatting.  Of course the pic is a back squat and a drawing so the laws of physics don't apply (you could rest the bar on the neck).  This squatting style will build quads and some glutes (a traditional front squat will have quad and more glute plus be easier on the knees).  It will place more stress on the knees and requires a ton of ankle mobility.  Also be sure to drive the knees outward.  That will clear space in the hips AND the ankles.  Knees should travel WAY outside the foot.  If you wanna squat like this then goblet squat and front squat. 

There is a good reason for preferring our backsquat form to resemble FS as much as possible. The reason is that it's much easier to train the BS than the FS. Easier to do more volume. More reps, more sets. Easier to use more weight. This is because the FS depends on rack strength as much as it does leg strength and drive. If your build means you're leaning over, you need even more rack strength than leg strength. FS is not the solution.

Also knees out will force hips back and take you away from the olympic position. That's one reason why you don't want to do that in olympic squats.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V9MvP1nxOs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V9MvP1nxOs</a>

Getting into the position will be easier.  IME Olympic lifters don't really front squat in that position.  That crazy position mostly comes from the catch phase in heavy cleans.  Their back squats and front squats are more traditional.

You're probably familar with and looking at how US weightlifters squat. They're not very good at doing olympic style squats, for one reason or another, they end up adopting a very PC dominant style even with their 'olympic squats'.

Knees are not unsafe in a very forward style as illustrated in the first picture. The reason you might think that though, is because you haven't learnt to do the olympic squat properly If you go from a PL style squat with vertical shins to an olympic squat, yes it will hurt your knees, even with the empty bar. The PL style doesn't depend on using the muscles directly around the knee and below of the lower leg. This is because you haven't taught your body the correct way to do an olympic squat which is very safe for the knees. PL style squat dont teach you to recruit the muscles of the lower leg to stabilise the knee at the bottom of a deep olympic squat.  If you use your calves and hamstrings and quads (near the knee) and contract them while going into the hole, the knee is supported very well by these muscles. You just have to try this out yourself. Think of the muscles around your knee activating to absorb your descent into the hole and you'll find the stress on knees is reduced. The video above goes into this a bit too.

You'll notice one thing about these squats, there is a very tiny angle btw hips crease and the knees, the knees are almost horizontal as are quads. This means the quads are in a better position to act out of the bottom of a hole. If someone does a 'deep squat' like KingFisher or my front squats, this means the quads are not able to act immediately out of the hole since they are over stretched. That's bad. Instead in that case it's the glutes and hamstrings which bounce you out, and then the about halfway up quads kick in. This isn't a quad dominant olympic squat. That's why I was going on about depth being misunderstood, because for the purposes of an olympic squat, it's more about the depth of the knee rather than the ass vs the knee.

The second image is more balanced.  You will get quad and glute work (although lesser) and hamstring strength.  All 3 are needed for athletes who run so this is the more common approach.  It also allows more weight so ou see it is more similar to a power lifter squat.  Starting strength is a classic example  of this style.

Depends on the person! My HBBS are so hamstring dominant, hell even my FS are so hamstring and glute dominant that my attempts at olympic squats end up resembling the 2nd pic. It's a fault. Because in my case the weight is not directly over midfoot, it's ahead, sometimes even further than my toes. This leads to good morning squats. Not enough training for my legs. Not enough quad development.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQnFe6jP46M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQnFe6jP46M</a>

Have you actually watched that guy squat? Looks nothing like that... So much hamstrings. The bottom position he actually takes is more like yours than the ideal one he describes.

Yes! I agree completely. I would like to ask him the same thing lol.

Could be one or more of the following :-

1. I know he got Romaleos recently (~0.75" heel)  when he used to wear old classic Dowins which had a 1.25" heel (that he may have modified by a cobbler to be even higher?) . A bigger heel allows you to get more knee forward. Try it by getting on your toes (emulating a big heel) and pushing your hips forward until they're directly above your ankles while sitting down into the first position in the poster. Some people will need a bigger heel than others to get to this position. He may need a bigger one to get into the ideal position than that provided by the Nikes.

2. He's not able to do the idea squat style with heavy weights, the vids of him show him doing a 2xbw squat for 5x5, he's not able to use the ideal form with his heaviest sets

3. He hasn't made the change yet from his old style, old habits are hard to break.

Would be interesting to see him show a video of a lifter he has coached into that technique using heavier weights.

Yup. Here is coach wu teaching his technique

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdFSzleg6vM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdFSzleg6vM</a>

I guess the most important question about this was why do you want to squat like that?

From your response it sounds like you want to be an olympic lifter.  That is one technique that you can use to be a better olympic lifter.  I have never seen anyone actually train their back squat n the positions shown in the picture (the vids showed theory but lacked in their technique when under a bar).  I am not saying they are wrong.  For Olympic lifting they may very well be correct.

IMO it borders on the point of diminishing returns for an athlete.  The further one goes down the rabbit hole of sport specific training for olympic lifting or powerlifting the further they stray from their goals as an athlete.

Why don't you just make front squat your primary exercise? It seems close enough to your back squat at the moment that your rack strength isn't an issue.