Author Topic: a fast and explosive donkey!  (Read 1859053 times)

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LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1830 on: May 23, 2013, 10:32:49 pm »
+2
worked out with avishek tonight.

WEIGHT: ???
SORENESS: none
ACHES/INJURIES: none
MENTAL STATE: a bit jazzed, underslept, but good day at work. plus working out with someone else always adds a bit of stimulus

- warm up

- SL bound practice
took some cues from avishek, will be modifying these a bit.

- broad jump w/reset x 4
i think this was a PR, ~37

- DL bound x 4,4,4
~37'6, 37, 36'6

- various DSVJ, SLRVJ, DLRVJ, broad jump-to-SVJ
got some video, best jumps were 2-step DLRVJ's later in the session once i started thinking about getting low.

- sprint 40y x 2
avishek timed them. first start got fucked up ran 5.6. second start was good and ran 5.1  :o  also timed him at a 4.7

- race avishek 40y x 2
he beat me by about 4 yards in the first one so on the second gave me a 3y head start and beat me by a yard.

***go to gym***

- light warm up

- LB pause squat 275 x 5,5
fuck high bar.

- circuit x 2
-- SL hyper x 10
-- pull up x 8,8(+6)
-- DB OHP 40s x 10
-- ab pull down x 20

- stretch

great workout. i have not gotten enough sleep the last two nights but it was good to work out with avishek. he's faster and jumps higher and has more practice with bounds and shit so that's helpful.

will post some vids later.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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AGC

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1831 on: May 23, 2013, 10:37:51 pm »
0
Ha that's awesome. Must be strange/cool to meet someone from the forum IRL.

LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1832 on: May 23, 2013, 10:43:13 pm »
0
Ha that's awesome. Must be strange/cool to meet someone from the forum IRL.

well, it is weird to be talking out loud about people named "raptor" and "t0ddday."

btw, t0ddday, is it "tahday" or "today"?
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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Raptor

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1833 on: May 24, 2013, 03:30:45 am »
0
At least you didn't have that problem with my nickname :D

Saw me switch back to low bar and switched back too? :D
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Mikey

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1834 on: May 24, 2013, 09:35:42 pm »
+2
That's cool that you trained with Avishek. Good for motivation and everything.
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

Raptor

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1835 on: May 25, 2013, 01:15:21 pm »
+3
You know I was eating my soup and I was thinking about what LBSS was saying that even though he has good strength his jumping is not up to par.

And it occured to me that maybe he has some antagonistic inhibition of some sort. It would ring somewhat true considering his sprinting numbers (bad sprinting speed etc).

If he has been doing so much low bar squatting and he's decent in high bar squatting as well, then it must mean his quads and glutes are decently strong. His feet/calves apparently have been improving lately.

Then it must be that the hip flexors, hamstrings and possibly tibialis anterior (to a lesser degree) could be culprits in this equation. If that's the case, if I were LBSS (I might implement this regardless in my training) I would do 1 set of supine psoas leg raises (with cables), leg curls and toe raises at the end of each and every workout.

I'd use a 20 rep set for each exercise and a weight I would confortably lift for 25 reps (so these 20 reps aren't to failure or anything so bad that it interferes with your main strength exercises). So I would do one set of 20 psoas raises and then stretch the hip flexors for 2 minutes, 1 set of 20 leg curls then stretch the hamstrings for 2 minutes and one set of toe raises (or walks on heels) for about 30-40 reps then stretch them for 2 minutes.

This would increase both the hypertrophy of these muscles & ALSO increase the awareness of the CNS that they are there and they can be used as breaks/they can be depended upon when the agonist muscles fire. And if they are dependable AND they are flexible (which you're doing both of doing what I wrote here) then the CNS can fire the agonists, which are the glutes, quads and calves in your actual jumping mechanics at their strongest ability.

If the CNS is NOT aware of these muscles being strong and flexible then it will automatically limit the power output of the agonists and this will occur, in my experience, at the end of the movement (which is paramount for jumping) - at the end of the movement because doing so it will prevent the hyperextension of that joint (a thing the antagonists should do as their job).

By the way, here's the psoas exercise:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBcw4OtXRc0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBcw4OtXRc0</a>

Good luck!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 01:17:35 pm by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1836 on: May 26, 2013, 07:55:50 pm »
0
WEIGHT: ???
SORENESS: none
ACHES/INJURIES: head
MENTAL STATE: kind of out of it, pissed that the field i wanted to use was closed

- warm up

- avishek SL bounds 10y x 4
avishek SL bounds: small bound alternating with a bound for height

- broad jump x 4

- DL bound x 4,4,4
meh

- alternating 1-2 SL jump 40y x 4

- easy-fast-easy x 10 strides each segment x 4
the field is bumpy and terrible for sprinting, and no reliable distance markers.

- stretch

workout sucked but better than nothing.

thanks for the thoughts, raptor. inhibition is definitely a problem for me on max DLRVJ; my best jumps have come when for whatever reason i'm able to go fast and smoothly into and through the plant. not sure that's true for sprinting or SLRVJ -- SLRVJ it's still more a hamstrings/calves weakness issue. but it probably can't hurt to throw some light potentiation-style stuff, as you suggest, into the ends of my workouts. might do those weight-free right now.

 :lololol:
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1837 on: May 29, 2013, 12:19:19 am »
+1
WEIGHT: 177
SORENESS: none
ACHES/INJURIES: head
MENTAL STATE: wanted to sprint, was very primed, but rain prevented that so settled on gym

- warm up

- snatch drills

- paused squat 285 x 5,5

- superset x 3
-- SL hyper +20 x 10; DBSLRDL 90 x 10; 50 x 10
-- pull up x 6,6,6
was not getting the right leg positioning with 90 lbs for SLRDL, so dropped weight. will continue with these as SL hypers are messing with my knees and SLRDL is also good for balance.

- SL psoas pull 35kg x 15
- heel walk x 50
- assisted GHR x 15
- stretch hip flexor/psoas x 60s
- stretch hamstrings x 60s

- paused calf raise 365 x 15

- pull up x 10

- hanging leg raise x 10

- stretch

meh. really wish i could have sprinted but made the most of it. snatches were okay for a while but then everything went to hell. i think sans coach i just have to cop to an attention limit with these. they're not physically challenging while i'm learning the technique and i don't want to spend an hour on them per workout if i can't actually move weight.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Raptor

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1838 on: May 29, 2013, 03:59:19 am »
0
Very nice

How were these:

- SL psoas pull 35kg x 15
- heel walk x 50
- assisted GHR x 15
- stretch hip flexor/psoas x 60s
- stretch hamstrings x 60s

?
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1839 on: May 29, 2013, 10:08:31 am »
0
good, not terribly challenging. except the psoas pull was probably a little too heavy. will go lighter next time and do it with pauses to make sure the flexion really goes above my hip. i was just messing around, trying to figure out where to do what. in the future i'd probably cycle the exercises and the complementary stretches as kind of a cool-down. so:

- rest of workout

- SL hip flexor/psoas pull x 15-20
- hip flexor/psoas stretch x 60s
- heel walk x 50
- tib anterior/peroneal stretch x 60s
- assisted GHR x 15-20
- hamstring stretch x 60s
- calf raise x 10-20
- calf stretch x 60s

- stretch

seems a little silly but it ain't gonna hurt so why not.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

TKXII

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1840 on: May 29, 2013, 10:56:53 am »
0
Then it must be that the hip flexors, hamstrings and possibly tibialis anterior (to a lesser degree) could be culprits in this equation. If that's the case, if I were LBSS (I might implement this regardless in my training) I would do 1 set of supine psoas leg raises (with cables), leg curls and toe raises at the end of each and every workout.

??? Muscles have nothing to do with this bullshit.

Jk. But on a serious note, how much would you expect his sprint times to decrease? 5.1s 40yd dash to ___ following a release of this inhibition?

I would expect less than a 0.1s difference in a 40. LBBS strength doesn't translate to good 40yd dash times without practice, or a good DLRVJ without practice, thus there should be focus on reactive strength imo. Of course, LBSS has a LOT of practice, so this is why some of us think it doesn't make sense. But...

Last week with LBBS we did some broad jumps into vertical jumps. I like this exercise because the athlete needs to produce forces vertically, after absorbing impact coming horizontally, quickly. It's also called a horizontal depth jump and is much more specific to a running vertical imo. The exercise looked novel for LBSS and he had some initial difficulty with it. Perhaps hip flexor inhibition played some role, but I think rather a lack of coordination and speed were the biggest weaknesses. Being able to transfer forces horizontally to vertically can be improved here.

Furthermore, his 2xbw LBBS is glute dominant. His SVJ is hip dominant. There are many more excellent knee dominant SVJs than hip SVJs - thus although he is strong, I don't think it's specific enough to a knee driven vertical jump, and I have to disagree with Lance that 2 inches on the back doesn't make much of a difference, I think it makes a giant difference. Even neck angle during a high bar squat or sprinting can make a giant difference in pattern of muscle activation. Just switching from vibrams to 100% barefeet makes a giant difference (extremely VMO dominant and no glute sensation at all to major glute sensation and more in the vastus lateralis), at least for me but I suspect for many people it would.

I don't think Raptor's suggestion could go wrong by any means, and if anything they would help strengthen the muscles, but I don't see how inhibition is the answer?

However if there is an inhibition I would suggest sprinting longer distances at a fast pace (like 60meters at least). I've noticed that the only times my hip flexors ever feel like they're inhibiting my stride is when I haven't sprinted in a while. After I sprint a little more my strides feel very loose and there is no burning sensation in my hip flexors, however without the addition of ankle weights or other stimuli, I cannot apply progressive overload. But... I don't think I have noticed differences in how the DLRVJ feels so I cannot confirm if hip flexor inhibition really hurts my own DLRVJ.

Apart from that, front squat are up next. High bar sucks for his traps, but front squats won't. Dno if he's had experience with those. And Bulgarian split squats Mike Boyle style instead of lunges because he can't do lunges b/c of toes.

Conclusion: I think it's worthy of consideration but I wonder how much of a difference it will make. How can releasing hip flexor inhibition improve his DLRVJ, by how much? Are we talking 1 inch, or 4 inches? Will it simply allow the hip and knee extensors to apply more strength or will it improve his form?
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1841 on: May 29, 2013, 11:35:15 am »
0
good points but these exercises and stretches aren't replacing anything. if i get a 0.1s drop out of them they will definitely have been worth it, although there will obviously be no way to prove causation. my primary focus is still on getting faster and improving coordination by sprinting, bounding and jumping, while maintaining strength.

front squat is a thought, as HB is untenable past 275 pounds or so, probably because i'm doing it wrong. can't figure out why the bar is pressing through my traps onto my spine. we've had this debate already. lance or adarq, if you're in here, any thoughts? more curious than anything else.

LB squat bottom position for reference:



this is the bottom of my SVJ, for reference:



will try to get a decent reference pic for HB squat bottom position soon.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 11:37:16 am by LBSS »
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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Raptor

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1842 on: May 29, 2013, 05:08:54 pm »
0
Well depth jumping is a quad+calf exercise, getting the hips pretty much OUT of the movement. See what your depth jump numbers are LBSS...

If you have strong hips and you use them well (and you seem to automatically garner them when you do SVJs) then improving on the power output and strength of the quads could be good. Depth jumping does that, especially high box depth jumps (18-24 inch).

So I would continue to squat low bar if that is confortable, maybe do some front squats for more volume at the end. Also depth jumps from high boxes. Obviously you need to see what your priorities at this point in time are.

I'd go with:

High box depth jumps 5x3
Low bar squat: 3x5+Front squat 2x12 with a weight you can confortably do 15 reps
Barbell calf raises: 3x15-20
Hip flexor, Hamstring and Tibialis anterior work 1x20 + 2min stretch for each

The end.

Obviously you can manage the volume of each exercise according to whatever your focus is. You could increase the volume of depth jumping during plyo-oriented periods of peaking your strength, something like 8x3 instead of 5x3, and go with 3x3 with your 5RM on the squat and 2x8 in the front squat with your 12RM. Keep everything else the same.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1843 on: May 29, 2013, 05:50:32 pm »
+1


^ that squat looks excellent, you seriously have to stop putting it in a different category simply due to the bar placed a couple inches lower.  Knee break, hip break, driving chest and shoulders UP, thats a perfect leg driven squat.  If anything fucking around with it will waste valuable time and possibly get you hurt.  The bar hurting your lower spine is most likely due to where you have your pelvis at the time.

 This is the thing man, some people need to squat 225 to vert 40, and some need 450, it varies so much its so silly to put an exact number on it and correlate to what you SHOULD vert.... You ever heard of a deadlift to 40yd dash correlator?

 what would help you the most is practicing your run ups from a very short run in, one that allows you to still get fairly low in the counter movement and use the areas youre strong in.  You can progress the steps out as you get better, but I would guess youll always go the highest from 3 steps or so.  Keep pushing that squat up and fucking believe in what youre doing.  Go for PR's on your running and standing verts frequently, dont make it busy work.

 The heel walks raptor talked about for tib anterior are great and will help get more spring out of the calves, you can add toe walks as well prior to sprints,verts, and they will potentiate the calves and lower leg.  Try it, get as high as you can on toes and walk 30 yds or so, then pull toes up as high as you can and walk the same distance on heels, then go for PRs. 
Relax.

LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1844 on: May 29, 2013, 06:25:24 pm »
0
thanks lance. appreciate in particular the return of confidence in squatting the way that's most comfortable for me. it was probably not a bad thing for me to try to switch but i'm happy to be going back. one thing: with HB the pain isn't in the lower spine, it's that the bar presses through my traps onto the upper spine. at any rate, i'll continue with paused LB squats* and keep working on short run ups off one and two whenever i can, be it at the track or gym.

*for reference, the initials LBSS have nothing to do with squatting, or exercises of any kind.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter