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I remember the earlier discussions with Steven Miller about him and his half squats and I was thinking about my half squat and why does it suck so much.

And now looking at my heaviest 1RM (145 kg) full squat I can see that the sticking point occured actually in this particular position of the half squat (if you look, it happens in maybe the most jump specific position in the squat in terms of angles).

I was wondering if in your experience met anything similar in somebody - being good at full squats but bad at two footed jumps and half squats. And if so, how to "correct" (assuming everybody should pretty much have a bigger (sometimes considerably) half squat than full squat) this. Is it just a matter of half squatting and adapting or is it more?

Thanks.

  I dont think you fall into the same category there.  The guys that have a big gap between the reversal point are usually guys who have squatted a good ways below parallel for a long period of time, and built up the reversal point at the point where the musculature is at the end rom and gives them rebound, or bounce off the calves at that point.  IMO, athletes that have been squatting slightly below parallel, but stopping the weight voluntarily and reversing before this "bounce" occurs, dont have as much trouble transitioning at that slightly higher rom.

Reviving this thread after recent discussion in raptor's journal:

It's still terrible. How can a half squat be MUCH harder than a full squat? What is my weakness that is causing this?

entropy's point of view:

leverage...

avishek:

I don't think it's odd at all, for myself it's the same thing, but ill have to double check today.

Yes leverage: typical gym goers will shift forward during the descent and shift backwards during the ascent. This is not possible during a full squat. Most gym goers only do quarter squats anyway and this hip activation is absent.

If you practice good form however and don't allow motion in the sagittal plane, and consciously work on amortizing right above parallel in a vert specific way, it should be very hard with similar load in full squat. Need videos though to rly see what I'm saying.

raptor:

Well when I do full squats I can go past that half squat point without being too active at that angle since I'm going to go much deeper, and I can deal with stopping the weight at the bottom MUCH better. Also, since I initiate the movement from the hole, which is easier for me apparently, I already have momentum when I reach the half squat position so...

me:

I hear all of you, fair points. Still it doesn't feel like making sense. For the same person, especially an experienced trainee like raptor, half squats should be easier than full ones.
Not sure though, can't back it up. Also leverages are indeed are very important, each one is different.
I did experiment today after this chat, after warming up i did singles of full vs half squats, ramping weight. Wanted to see how it looks , in terms of form , transition , power output etc.
Will post vid later.

And here's the vid from today. I can't get any conclusions out of it. Reversal felt the same. Concentric felt much more powerful on halfs of course, as you can see from bar speed too.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGCcLsUVJuU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGCcLsUVJuU</a>

You guys film your fulls/halfs too if you like , might be interesting to see how each one's form differentiates in the two movements.

Reviving this thread after recent discussion in raptor's journal:

Quote from: Raptor on March 15, 2013, 07:15:53 pm

It's still terrible. How can a half squat be MUCH harder than a full squat? What is my weakness that is causing this?

entropy's point of view:

Quote from: entropy on March 16, 2013, 04:55:17 am

leverage...

avishek:

Quote from: Avishek on March 16, 2013, 05:55:55 am

I don't think it's odd at all, for myself it's the same thing, but ill have to double check today.

Yes leverage: typical gym goers will shift forward during the descent and shift backwards during the ascent. This is not possible during a full squat. Most gym goers only do quarter squats anyway and this hip activation is absent.

If you practice good form however and don't allow motion in the sagittal plane, and consciously work on amortizing right above parallel in a vert specific way, it should be very hard with similar load in full squat. Need videos though to rly see what I'm saying.

raptor:

Quote from: Raptor on March 16, 2013, 07:18:24 am

Well when I do full squats I can go past that half squat point without being too active at that angle since I'm going to go much deeper, and I can deal with stopping the weight at the bottom MUCH better. Also, since I initiate the movement from the hole, which is easier for me apparently, I already have momentum when I reach the half squat position so...

me:

Quote from: vag on March 16, 2013, 11:02:55 am

I hear all of you, fair points. Still it doesn't feel like making sense. For the same person, especially an experienced trainee like raptor, half squats should be easier than full ones.
Not sure though, can't back it up. Also leverages are indeed are very important, each one is different.
I did experiment today after this chat, after warming up i did singles of full vs half squats, ramping weight. Wanted to see how it looks , in terms of form , transition , power output etc.
Will post vid later.

And here's the vid from today. I can't get any conclusions out of it. Reversal felt the same. Concentric felt much more powerful on halfs of course, as you can see from bar speed too.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGCcLsUVJuU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGCcLsUVJuU</a>

You guys film your fulls/halfs too if you like , might be interesting to see how each one's form differentiates in the two movements.

Those look like a normal half squat to full squat form.  If you want to use the halfs to peak out your vert, focus everything on that reversal, the very split second you go from down to up.  You can make that point in the range of motion very strong and very tolerable to high eccentric overload if you work at it.  Use the full squats for hypertrophy, primary strength gains, the halfs for specificity and special strength specific to the movement you want to improve.   

IN OTHER WORDS

Would you work on increasing the half squat even if it comes from improved movement efficiency, since in this case the movement efficiency is also specific to the jump or would that time be better spent working on increasing your strength with full squats?

Hm... would you go heavy on the half squats or use a weight light enough that allows for a faster eccentric/faster reversal speed?

  You will have to start fairly light, but this should move up very quickly and end up higher than your full squat max for reps with explosive transitions.  A good way to gauge how much weight you need is to pay attention to the actual time you spend pushing when you come out of the hole.   Youre looking for more of a *down, POP, and youre up.*   It should feel like you "push" for less than a second or so, which creates enough momentum to take you to the top.  If you get more of a constant "strain" to get up, then youre not going to get the same training effect I am referring to. 

  This will not be light weight for long, and once you get used to using the eccentric to gain more power and are able to actually benefit from it you should notice a dramatic difference in the amount of eccentric force you can load your jumps with and use the added power rather than collapsing from overload. 

heres a vid taken today of my full squat and half squat... I plan to increase the half squat slowly 5 or 10lbs or so every workout and focus on the suggestion by Lance

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIBYQBdLyYU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIBYQBdLyYU</a>