Author Topic: The right and wrong way to squat  (Read 20157 times)

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TKXII

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2011, 11:19:52 pm »
0
Nobody is focusing on the argument, how intelligent we are.

I made a revision to my argument; if you are squatting significantly below parallel, then it is good for thehips to go back, but above parallel, it is not since the quads become more involved.

And actually here is a more recent training video of mine:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_yOYQ1358c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_yOYQ1358c</a>

My DL max has gone up around 100lbs in less than 2.5mos. I hit 425 a couple weeks ago pretty easily. Going for 3xbw.


Yes kingfish I like front squats, it's hard to lean forward but the same thing does apply. Your pelvis really should not be moving backwards once above parallel. Squatting to just below or exactly at parallel is definitely better for power development in the long run imo since the amortization is challenging the correct musculature in the correct way. In atg squats the amortization and muscle involvement is way different. I notice how atg or below parallel is almost easier than just parallel, or half-squats with the same weight, adarq talked about that before.

Edit: I'd like to congratulate Kingfish actually, good job. Squat form is heel-to-toe and you can see the difference in his knees, they don't move so much in the horizontal plane compared to the toe-to-heel squats, and the hips move forward above parallel. That's what I'm talking about. It feels better and works better.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 12:06:09 am by Avishek »
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

TKXII

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 11:27:17 pm »
0
It's interesting how people start debating about other random shit in a debate after realizing they can't make any valid points.

I don't think anyone can disagree (and that's why no one has made any comments on it), that descending with elevated heels, and ascending with the hips pushing backwards, and the heels depressed, is better than squatting heel-to-toe as a mental cue, or has any relevance to vertical jump, sprinting, or any athletic movement involving plantar flexion, knee and hip extension.

This is really not overanalyzed. It's common sense. Actually, kinesthetic sense. Don't think about it.. feel about it. It doesn't make sense to squat this way. It's the lazy way to squat and happens under fatigue.

Lastly, steven has a good VJ after watching the video closely. I thought it was only 30 at first but looks like it could be 35. But yes for having over a 2xbw squat, it could be way better. His reason would be slow RFD, because I looked at his form and it is not bad at all, there is a tiny amount of hip movement backwards but not much comapared to these other videos. Frank Yang had a very good VJ, but squatted toe-to-heel (but trained very explosively) so the point is thus, you can develop strong quads by squatting incorrectly toe-to-heel, but you can get stronger in a more specific fashion heel-to-toe. Not incredibly huge of a deal, but enough worth posting about.



lol

If you get relatively stronger in any kind of squat (after neural gains), your jump is going to go up. Doesn't matter if it's optimal

A 35 inch jump is higher than most players in the NFL (take into account inflation). I'm sure a lot of them are strong enough to squat 2xBW. I'm not sure what you are basing your numbers on. You're too distracted by e-stats to know how people actually jump. Thank people like Rip for that.

I agree 35 is good, and yes it is higher than most NFL players. If I had statistics to look at people training for vertical jump and their squat numbers that would definitely be helpful because I can't be sure that his VJ could be way higher from his squat. Point taken.

I guess I was basing it off of my experience. But my levers are different than his. I think my svj is around 34, and my max squat squat is at 225ish. I can barely get 225 up and from submax calculators its around 230. I weigh slightly under 160 so my ratio sucks but I jump well standing for someone who has not trained the squat till this year.

One other reason many people have high squats but bad vertical jumps is because they go too deep I'd say. As I mentioned in a previous comment, you don't train the muscles as they are used in a vertical so that is not optimal. I don't know exactly why but going slightly below parallel has some advantage to abruptly changing directions at or slightly above parallel. It may be due to pushing the hips back which is not easy above parallel.
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

LBSS

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 11:36:51 am »
+2
why are you all wasting your time with this?
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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steven-miller

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 12:24:02 pm »
+1
1. So that we do not have to play with imaginary numbers here: My best SVJ is 36", achieved several times. My best full squat was 441 lbs (200 kg) for 5.

2. We are discussing the ideas of someone whose best squat is 225 lbs - about as much as I powersnatch. There is nothing wrong with squatting that much, most people, obviously, have been there at some point in time. But most people would also ask for advice at this stage instead of giving it and pointing out form errors of much stronger people.

3. The main problem with Avishek's actual argument is that it takes no recognition of thoughts previously spelled out by experienced coaches and experts. One can certainly name several of those figures, many of which will voice different opinions. Avishek however does not take notice of anyone who has thought through a lot of things and has provided conclusive lines of thought regarding optimal back squat technique for performance training. Instead he constructs, due to his limited experience and knowledge, some dichotomy that is really not there (toe-to-heal and heal-to-toe) and tries to underpin it with an incomplete "analysis" of "something".

4. I don't know why my squat technique has been a point of discussion here, but I recognize that there have always been problems with my squat technique and never have I claimed to have textbook form. I will continue improving on that once I am back to squatting. What Avishek points out regarding my form errors is partially correct but probably more by chance than by correct observation.

steven-miller

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2011, 12:29:51 pm »
0
why are you all wasting your time with this?

OMG, I just watched those videos. It's far worse than I thought. You are right. I am out of here.

LanceSTS

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2011, 01:43:41 pm »
0


  Avishek,  how about posting a video of you doing your "correct" squat form, so that we can better understand your stance. thanks.
Relax.

LanceSTS

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2011, 01:46:49 pm »
+3
why are you all wasting your time with this?


  Normally I let that shit go but I dont want new members that come to this forum to see a thread like this,  where things are stated as fact, rather than a beginners opinion, and follow blindly, end up getting hurt. If he had said, "In my opinion, you should squat on your ....." then that would be fine.
Relax.

Kingfish

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2011, 02:04:40 pm »
0

Yes kingfish I like front squats, it's hard to lean forward but the same thing does apply. Your pelvis really should not be moving backwards once above parallel. Squatting to just below or exactly at parallel is definitely better for power development in the long run imo since the amortization is challenging the correct musculature in the correct way. In atg squats the amortization and muscle involvement is way different. I notice how atg or below parallel is almost easier than just parallel, or half-squats with the same weight, adarq talked about that before.

Edit: I'd like to congratulate Kingfish actually, good job. Squat form is heel-to-toe and you can see the difference in his knees, they don't move so much in the horizontal plane compared to the toe-to-heel squats, and the hips move forward above parallel. That's what I'm talking about. It feels better and works better.


i do not shift the load (toe/heel) in my squats. that is very unsafe and can really get somebody injured. 

i focus on keeping the load distributed evenly with a little bias to the front 2/3s. i have size 12 shoes. everybody's form will be different. i also have a good amount of dorsi flexion ROM at the bottom.

5'10" | 202lbs | 44 yrs
reach - 7'8" (92") |paused full squat - 545x1| standing VJ - 40"|

walk more. resting HR to low 40s. 

Daily Squats Day 1 - Aug 30, 2011 and still going.

undoubtable

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2011, 02:33:54 pm »
+1
I was watching the deadlift video and thinking Avishek is finally doing something normal.... Then he starts trying to lift the bar with one arm hahaha
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LBSS

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2011, 02:48:02 pm »
0
why are you all wasting your time with this?


  Normally I let that shit go but I dont want new members that come to this forum to see a thread like this,  where things are stated as fact, rather than a beginners opinion, and follow blindly, end up getting hurt. If he had said, "In my opinion, you should squat on your ....." then that would be fine.

fair enough.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

TKXII

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2011, 12:11:53 am »
-2
I do not state anything as fact at least I do not try to. I'm open to the idea that everything I think is wrong like a true philospher. But still, nobody has commented on descending on the toes, after I posted several videos of this type of squatting and steven insists that it does not exist and therefore my argument is flawed because I didn't take into consideration that this has been discussed before. Post some fucking links jesus christ.

My max squat is only 225 because I just started to train it in order to be normal. I did not want to train it the past 3 years. of my training.

I can post a video of myself squatting soon, but Kingfishes is spot on so check that one out on page 1. Again, a clear difference is in the way the knees track. Just watch how little his knees actually move horizontally compared to frank yang's squat. 

Also again steven, I said you had good form. I have nothing against your form actually, I can't see your feet perfectly though.
Kingfish - I recommend squatting heels bottom, toe at the top, not toe bottom heel top as you might have said I recommended and it's not unsafe at all with a moderate weight. This is just to teach people not to descend on the toes as they would prefer.


"3. The main problem with Avishek's actual argument is that it takes no recognition of thoughts previously spelled out by experienced coaches and experts. One can certainly name several of those figures, many of which will voice different opinions. Avishek however does not take notice of anyone who has thought through a lot of things and has provided conclusive lines of thought regarding optimal back squat technique for performance training. Instead he constructs, due to his limited experience and knowledge, some dichotomy that is really not there (toe-to-heal and heal-to-toe) and tries to underpin it with an incomplete "analysis" of "something". "


-THis is very true, but false at the same time. Taking into recognition all this past research is not a prerequisite for having a good argument, sound methods and logic are. My argument certainly does not take into recognition anything, I have no references, as I mentioned, I am using my common/kinesthetic sense and experience to analyze this and in reality i'm looking for feedback and an intelligent discussion which has not been made yet because nobody has the good will to just lay out some research and post some links. Instead people would rather be closed minded and brainless, except Lance who asked me to post my form. Steve, if you think you have all this wealth of fucking knowledge the correct thing to do is to just post it and it takes care of itself. The fact that you are commenting on my squat numbers and level of expertise shows you are lost as fuck and don't know how to rebut my argument off the top of your head. So basically, this is not biochemistry, or quantum physics, you don't need much of a brain to figure out this shit and I don't need to post references or have read every book on the subject to say something that makes sense.

LANCE: You think someone is going to increase their chances of injury from squatting heel-to-toe rather than toe-to-heel as they would probably do naturally? As the individuals in the videos I posted squat? What's worse for your knees? Answer is pretty obvious. THis argument is so fucking simple I do not understand why people don't get it.


And see? No one has even commented on my argument. Instead you pussy faggots post my old videos which do not represent my current training and ignore the main argument because you have no control over your amygdalas since you are all teenagers.


The one armed deadlifts are for grip strength undoubtable. It's more of a hold than a lift.
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

TheSituation

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2011, 12:54:17 am »
+1
Nobody cares about your argument because your max squat is 225.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 12:55:48 am by TheSituation »
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Raptor

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2011, 02:28:22 am »
0
Nobody cares about your argument because your max squat is 225.

Let's see how much YOU can squat with PROPER heel to toe transition! :pissed:
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

TKXII

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2011, 10:05:41 am »
0
Nobody cares about your argument because your max squat is 225.

Despite having a poor squat, I can jump standing higher than most people with better squat ratios. That's important. So instead of striving for higher numbers, making the squat the most specific/powerful is more important. And my true max is really 230. Lol that still sucks I know. Not to mention that power and force training are totally different and having a heavy squat does not mean you are the most powerful with a 50%1RM jump squat or even BW.

My Max deadlift is 2.7x BW above 425 at this point. So that's good. That might slightly improve my SVJ as well so who knows. I think I can hit the three in less than a month.

"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

LBSS

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Re: The right and wrong way to squat
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2011, 10:07:05 am »
0
I do not state anything as fact at least I do not try to. I'm open to the idea that everything I think is wrong like a true philospher. But still, nobody has commented on descending on the toes, after I posted several videos of this type of squatting and steven insists that it does not exist and therefore my argument is flawed because I didn't take into consideration that this has been discussed before. Post some fucking links jesus christ.

My max squat is only 225 because I just started to train it in order to be normal. I did not want to train it the past 3 years. of my training.

I can post a video of myself squatting soon, but Kingfishes is spot on so check that one out on page 1. Again, a clear difference is in the way the knees track. Just watch how little his knees actually move horizontally compared to frank yang's squat. 

Also again steven, I said you had good form. I have nothing against your form actually, I can't see your feet perfectly though.
Kingfish - I recommend squatting heels bottom, toe at the top, not toe bottom heel top as you might have said I recommended and it's not unsafe at all with a moderate weight. This is just to teach people not to descend on the toes as they would prefer.


"3. The main problem with Avishek's actual argument is that it takes no recognition of thoughts previously spelled out by experienced coaches and experts. One can certainly name several of those figures, many of which will voice different opinions. Avishek however does not take notice of anyone who has thought through a lot of things and has provided conclusive lines of thought regarding optimal back squat technique for performance training. Instead he constructs, due to his limited experience and knowledge, some dichotomy that is really not there (toe-to-heal and heal-to-toe) and tries to underpin it with an incomplete "analysis" of "something". "


-THis is very true, but false at the same time. Taking into recognition all this past research is not a prerequisite for having a good argument, sound methods and logic are. My argument certainly does not take into recognition anything, I have no references, as I mentioned, I am using my common/kinesthetic sense and experience to analyze this and in reality i'm looking for feedback and an intelligent discussion which has not been made yet because nobody has the good will to just lay out some research and post some links. Instead people would rather be closed minded and brainless, except Lance who asked me to post my form. Steve, if you think you have all this wealth of fucking knowledge the correct thing to do is to just post it and it takes care of itself. The fact that you are commenting on my squat numbers and level of expertise shows you are lost as fuck and don't know how to rebut my argument off the top of your head. So basically, this is not biochemistry, or quantum physics, you don't need much of a brain to figure out this shit and I don't need to post references or have read every book on the subject to say something that makes sense.

LANCE: You think someone is going to increase their chances of injury from squatting heel-to-toe rather than toe-to-heel as they would probably do naturally? As the individuals in the videos I posted squat? What's worse for your knees? Answer is pretty obvious. THis argument is so fucking simple I do not understand why people don't get it.


And see? No one has even commented on my argument. Instead you pussy faggots post my old videos which do not represent my current training and ignore the main argument because you have no control over your amygdalas since you are all teenagers.


The one armed deadlifts are for grip strength undoubtable. It's more of a hold than a lift.

TLDR
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter