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Full title: THe right and wrong way to squat: most people reading this squat the wrong way.

I'm going to make this really short, but after a few responses I'll get more detailed.

Almost everyone I see in the gym does the useless type of squat for athleticism: you can call it the toe-to-heel squat. Weak glutes, laziness, ego and resultant desire to stack more plates on the bar, tight adductors/hipflexors, are all potential contributors to this calamity plaguing athletes every hour of the day.

When I teach people how to squat (as the bona fide personal trainer I am), most people will initially descend on toes and ascend shifting to heels, performing this evil toe-to-heel squat. As a result, I came up with (as plenty of other moderately intelligent men and women have), of teaching a heel-to-toe squat. Descend, focusing on heels, ascend, rising on toes. Works wonders.

It's important to understand the importance of this because many people who get interested in jumping higher subsequently become interested in weight lifting, and many waste their time due to incorrect form, and then lose interest in vertical jump and cease to see any gains so instead just focus on strength training. I've seen plenty of 'impressive' squat videos on this forum that are unfortunately toe-to-heel evil squats; and the athletes squatting this way usually have a poor vertical jump because this type of squatting won't transfer as well to VJ.

Here is a toe to heel squat:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTk7azSIAXQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTk7azSIAXQ</a>

at 00:11, she is on her toes, at 00:12, she shifts her weight back onto her entire foot, and then shifts back to toe.

Concomitant with toe-heel mechanics are the positions of the knee and hip joints; the knee and hip tend to move in directions that they would not during athletic events in a vertical (coronal), or horizontal (sagittal) planes.

Compare the way her hips and knees move in relation to her box jumping:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0hgELLBI08" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0hgELLBI08</a>

In weight lifting, since the planes are slightly more restricted, the knees of toe-to-heel (to be called toe squatters from now on) push back tremendously. Notice in the squat video, that while her knees move back, her hips also move back. THis would be good if the athlete wanted to improve her ability to jump backwards.

It's easier to lift more weight this way though for sure and that's why people do it.
Here is another example of toe squatting

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUDaxMmnU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUDaxMmnU</a>

The video I was looking for though was when frank yang literally jumped backwards after a max squat, throwing the bar in front of him... That wouldn't be possible if he were heel squatting, and transferring the forces to the toes, and extending more at the hip, because HE would be moving forwards slightly with the bar. Toe squatters move backwards, and this creates a nice levrage to lift more weight up. THe clearest evidence is in the knees, they come forward, and move back exaggeratedly as I mentioned earlier. Of course the knees do that in a vertical jump as well because that is how knee extension works in the coronal plane, but not as much. And NOBODY vertical jumps descending on their toes and ascending on their heels or some part of the foot behind the toes.

Of coruse frank could jump high, but I am confident he'd be able to jump higher if he could squat the same numbers with the form I recommend... the same form everyone recommends in fact. It's natural to transfer weight forward whether it's walking, running, or jumping. I've taken videos of my deadlifts and noticed I fail to get back on my heels during the eccentric wth 70% of greater of 1rm. It's weakness.


The challenge then arises: who can jump the highest, with the weakest squat? (assuming you weren't naturally jumping freakishly high, also assuming the squat is the heel-to-toe correct squat of course). Those wth strong squat who cannot jump high are probably doing toe to heel squats.

Lastly, you'll immediately feel a difference in recruited musculature after doing it correctly.

If you want to be credible post links. Having strong opinions and being angry can make your argument sound smart but it's a pretty naive strategy. Post some rational flow of ideas than trying to lambast ideas that go against your own.

1. About the first video not being a true squat, it doesn't matter. It's still transmitting forces toe-to-heel and therefore isn't the best, and actually it is a squat variation that couldn't be more clear.

2. Far more appropriate than wearing timberlands.. you don't need the best type of shoes to squat heel-to-toe, just correct form.

3. Dn't know what you're last point is about "dichotomizing" squat variations that don't exist. I clearly posted the video. if you don't want to accept anything whatsoever then you're not contributing shit.

4. On performing a back squat like a jump being stupid: post the link. Also I did not say you have to perform it exactly like a jump since that's not possible. What I said was don't descend on the toes like Frank Yang and the girl in the video did (i.e. don't descend with your heels elevating). That's nothing new.

5. I've watched your squat video but can't see the feet. Your hips move back as well during the first 1/2 of the concentric showing that you are probbly pushing back a little bit. You also don't have a good SVJ despite having a decent squat ratio. But your squat was better than Frank Yangs and is more specific because it's more heel-to-toe. Maybe I need a better way to describe these two types of squats.

6. Another toe-to-heel squat 05:40ish, and 08:47 -most prominent with the right foot at the first time, and you can see the hips traveling backwards in the front squat at 8:47 onwards and the heels elevating and the athlete shifting weight to the inside of the feet.You are saying that that type of squatting is better for vertical jump than trying to go heel-to-toe and that therefore it's stupid to squat as if you were going to jump? I mean some people with weak glutes and muscular imbalances in and around the hip will certainly jump off the inside of their feet creating a valgus knee angle. But thta should be corrected b/c it's due to weakness.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG_lV2xZ048" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG_lV2xZ048</a>

7. Ok here's a correct squat. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE A FULL BACK FUCKING SQUAT. WHAT MATTERS ARE THE LEVER ARMS, AND FORCE VECTORS I.E. WHERE THE FORCES ARE COMING FROM AND WHAT DIRECTION THEY'RE GIONG IN.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G84VT4U5gvQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G84VT4U5gvQ</a>

hips go down and back on descent. hips go up and forward on ascension. It's possible to back squat without your hips having to move backwards ont he ascension.

I am very curious to know how/why steven miller's 35'' SVJ is 'not good' and how his 420x5 ATG squat is 'decent'.

You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion.

 First, a TRUE 35 svj at his bw of ~200 lbs is not something to laugh at, you dont take into consideration the length of his levers, his bw, fiber distribution, etc. etc., so thats a very dumb statement.  Figure up your squat to bw ratio, and your TRUE svj, then compare it to his ratio.  Maybe he "only" jumps 35 because he doesnt squat on his toes though, hed be flying the rest of high flyers who over analyze and butcher the living fuck out of general strength exercises.

Quote from: LanceSTS on December 18, 2011, 04:27:44 pm

Quote from: Raptor on December 18, 2011, 03:59:04 pm

You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion.

 First, a TRUE 35 svj at his bw of ~200 lbs is not something to laugh at, you dont take into consideration the length of his levers, his bw, fiber distribution, etc. etc., so thats a very dumb statement.  Figure up your squat to bw ratio, and your TRUE svj, then compare it to his ratio.  Maybe he "only" jumps 35 because he doesnt squat on his toes though, hed be flying the rest of high flyers who over analyze and butcher the living fuck out of general strength exercises.

I do, trust me. I take into consideration and all that, but IN MY OPINION, BASED ON HIS STRENGTH NUMBERS, you'd expect a higher SVJ. I'm not "laughing at" whatsoever. 35 is no joke.

If diminutive 5'5 O-lifters jump 40+, you'd expect a taller guy with better leverage to do better at 420x5 squat, even if that weaker than what O-lifters squat.

since their SQUAT is the reason for their vj ...........  the dudes JUMP heavy weights overhead and through space all day long, but that damn squat is all thats making the jumps high.

to make this "best squat-style" for SVJ, id say learn to front squat and use the closest movement pattern on a high bar back squat. simple. done.

my best front squat recently in less than 8 weeks of doing them is in the mid-high 300s.. and im not failing from lack of quads.. my wrist gives out while i try to push the bar / prevent the bar from falling out of my deltoids.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGSq-YOYOmw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGSq-YOYOmw</a>

if you don't have the flexibility for a clean grip.. the best harness i recently saw the trainers in my gym is using looks like a 8-10" rod with extended hooks at both ends to grip the bar (2 harness, 1 for each hand). you will front squat with your wrist a good 6-8" above your deltoids, almost at ear level. this harness also makes low bar squatting alot easier on the wrist since you can grip a low bar with wrists almost at high bar wide

No Avishek drops video, no point taken ^^^

Sorry.

EDIT: Actually there are "some" drops but not 10 feet +. That sucks.

"Must use legs to push effectively with pecs"  Interesting.