Author Topic: The reactive effect  (Read 8603 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
The reactive effect
« on: April 03, 2011, 03:53:20 pm »
0
We always hear about the reactive effect as being a spring like movement etc, but let's talk about a countermovement jump vs a paused jump. A countermovement jump will usually be higher.

In my opinion, the only real difference is not a spring like effect of any kind, the only difference in reality is the fact that the muscles get loaded more because the body weight increases as you lower and stop yourself from lowering.

The same thing occurs in a high vs even higher speed plant. The faster you go, the more strength you need to amortizate your body because your bodyweight * acceleration (plant speed) = the total amount of weight that needs to be amortizated. And if you can take in that weight, the muscles (previously enabled eccentrically to stop you from crushing into the ground) remain activated for the concentric part of the movement too, if it's done quickly.

I think that's all there is to it in reality. I keep on hearing about all this "spring" thing and I think that's erroneous and makes people fail to understand the real thing that is going on.

Now the only counter-example to this is the Olympic lifter that jumps a lot from a standstill and sucks coming off a run. I think in that situation it's a matter of technique (where technique = failing to understand/apply the proper body position to produce the maximum amount of force, and to be the most easy to amortizate, from). Also, the adaptations over time for the O-Lifters require them to generate "standstill" acceleration from a horizontally neutral position, hence their preferred "stopped" position for developing power.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Dreyth

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3060
  • Respect: +1060
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 04:38:25 pm »
0
Kind of agree here... so let's apply this knowledge:

Doing plyos will allow you to jump higher from a standstill only because you'll be able to amorzize the force from just *dropping faster* then (because dropping faster will load the muscles more).
Therefore, if we were to utilize a paused jump in which we are externally loaded to the moment right up until our feet leave the ground, and then release that external load, we would jump just as high as we did if that same load was achieved through a plyometric loading instead of an external type loading (but that might be impossible to simulate because the load achieved with a plyometric movement, isn't static; it's dynamic).


And I never really understood the argument that a plyometric movement produces more force only because you're putting your limbs in a better position.. you can easily test that, wtf, it's such a stupid claim.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 04:40:44 pm by Dreyth »
I'm LAKERS from The Vertical Summit

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 04:55:50 pm »
0
Well jumping with the legs a bit foward than just straight underneath you gives you some better leverage indeed.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

tychver

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 05:00:15 pm »
0
Now the only counter-example to this is the Olympic lifter that jumps a lot from a standstill and sucks coming off a run. I think in that situation it's a matter of technique (where technique = failing to understand/apply the proper body position to produce the maximum amount of force, and to be the most easy to amortizate, from). Also, the adaptations over time for the O-Lifters require them to generate "standstill" acceleration from a horizontally neutral position, hence their preferred "stopped" position for developing power.

If you train to be damn explosive from a standstill then your SVJ will be better and make your RVJ looks "worse" compared to someone who isn't as good at SVJs. Doesn't necessarily mean RVJ technique is any worse.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2011, 05:27:45 pm »
0
Now the only counter-example to this is the Olympic lifter that jumps a lot from a standstill and sucks coming off a run. I think in that situation it's a matter of technique (where technique = failing to understand/apply the proper body position to produce the maximum amount of force, and to be the most easy to amortizate, from). Also, the adaptations over time for the O-Lifters require them to generate "standstill" acceleration from a horizontally neutral position, hence their preferred "stopped" position for developing power.

If you train to be damn explosive from a standstill then your SVJ will be better and make your RVJ looks "worse" compared to someone who isn't as good at SVJs. Doesn't necessarily mean RVJ technique is any worse.

Yeah, it bridges the gap between the maximum voluntary power and maximum involuntary power... but I think these people will automatically favor a standing VJ vs a running or dropstep VJ.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34034
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +9112
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 05:41:52 pm »
+1
We always hear about the reactive effect as being a spring like movement etc, but let's talk about a countermovement jump vs a paused jump. A countermovement jump will usually be higher.

In my opinion, the only real difference is not a spring like effect of any kind, the only difference in reality is the fact that the muscles get loaded more because the body weight increases as you lower and stop yourself from lowering.

The same thing occurs in a high vs even higher speed plant. The faster you go, the more strength you need to amortizate your body because your bodyweight * acceleration (plant speed) = the total amount of weight that needs to be amortizated. And if you can take in that weight, the muscles (previously enabled eccentrically to stop you from crushing into the ground) remain activated for the concentric part of the movement too, if it's done quickly.

I think that's all there is to it in reality. I keep on hearing about all this "spring" thing and I think that's erroneous and makes people fail to understand the real thing that is going on.

Now the only counter-example to this is the Olympic lifter that jumps a lot from a standstill and sucks coming off a run. I think in that situation it's a matter of technique (where technique = failing to understand/apply the proper body position to produce the maximum amount of force, and to be the most easy to amortizate, from). Also, the adaptations over time for the O-Lifters require them to generate "standstill" acceleration from a horizontally neutral position, hence their preferred "stopped" position for developing power.

raptor, you just described how a spring works......................

derp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law

Hooke's law of elasticity is an approximation that states that the extension of a spring is in direct proportion with the load applied to it.

so improving runup speed, cmj, etc, all result in more load being applied to the springs, ie tendons.. if you're too weak for the load you're applying, ie, runup is too fast for your strength levels, your cns will inhibit you so that you cannot load the springs (tendons) as you are trying to do... if you are strong enough however, then the faster the runup, generally the more capability for elastic return from the tendons.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2011, 05:46:26 pm »
0
Well my point was it's still muscle-dependent and not tendon dependent. Tendon stiffness comes into play only if you have the strength to make that happen. And I still feel it's not a tendon matter but a muscular one, as the MUSCLES will be able to generate more power sensing you're "heavier" because of the acceleration to the ground.

So it comes down to the muscle and not the tendon.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34034
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +9112
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2011, 05:59:41 pm »
+1
Well my point was it's still muscle-dependent and not tendon dependent. Tendon stiffness comes into play only if you have the strength to make that happen. And I still feel it's not a tendon matter but a muscular one, as the MUSCLES will be able to generate more power sensing you're "heavier" because of the acceleration to the ground.

So it comes down to the muscle and not the tendon.

first hit on google scholar:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/v885622121616054/

"These results suggested that (1) the greater jump height in CMJ could be explained by both the tendon elasticity and the increased activation level of muscle, (2) tendon elasticity played a more significant role in the enhancement of jump height during DJ, and (3) joint stiffness was not related to either pre-stretch augmentation or tendon stiffness. "



dude, please go read pubmed studies/supertraining/science & practice before telling us theories that are conclusively debunked by thousands of peer reviewed research studies.. CMJ is less contribution from tendon than DJ, sure, but it's more contribution from tendon than static VJ.. leverage is much better in a CMJ than in a static VJ, that plays a huge part also.. if you wanted to truly compare static VJ to CMJ, you'd have to have someone who is well trained in static VJ in the first place.

bottom line, as velocity increases, tendon contribution increases, there's no way around it.

dirksilver

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2011, 06:57:26 pm »
+1
SPANKED!

$ick3nin.vend3tta

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2011, 07:13:08 pm »
0
So it comes down to the muscle and not the tendon.

When it comes to sprinting muscle can't compete with tendon elasticity.

Original Link: http://maximum-maximorum.com/2009/02/13/strength-qualities-of-the-100m-sprinter/

$ick3nin.vend3tta

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2011, 07:16:15 pm »
0
bottom line, as velocity increases, tendon contribution increases, there's no way around it.

So by what means should we be using to optimally develop the tendons?.

ISO's?.




adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34034
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +9112
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2011, 12:57:23 am »
0
bottom line, as velocity increases, tendon contribution increases, there's no way around it.

So by what means should we be using to optimally develop the tendons?.

ISO's?.


isos? why isos?

reactive work.. rebounds (plyos/hops/bounds etc), jumps, sprints.

pc

$ick3nin.vend3tta

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2011, 02:47:47 am »
0
isos? why isos?

reactive work.. rebounds (plyos/hops/bounds etc), jumps, sprints.

What about the diagram above (Muscle actions & energy contribution)?. Stating an isometric contraction leads to greater energy store in the tendons as opposed to concentric/eccentric contractions which store less?.

Do plyos/hops/bounds cut it optimally considering poor form would create conconcentric/eccentric contractions?. Or would they?.

I don't mind doing ISO's at all, as long it's doing my tendons good.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 02:50:20 am by $ick3nin.vend3tta »

LanceSTS

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2255
  • Respect: +550
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/LanceSTS
    • Email
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2011, 03:42:26 am »
0
isos? why isos?

reactive work.. rebounds (plyos/hops/bounds etc), jumps, sprints.

What about the diagram above (Muscle actions & energy contribution)?. Stating an isometric contraction leads to greater energy store in the tendons as opposed to concentric/eccentric contractions which store less?.

Do plyos/hops/bounds cut it optimally considering poor form would create conconcentric/eccentric contractions?. Or would they?.

I don't mind doing ISO's at all, as long it's doing my tendons good.

Thats a dead end road youre looking at going down man, trying to target tendons specifically with isos instead of training movements/muscles is a terrible idea and it never works out for anyone.  If youre getting stronger, training explosively, jumping, sprinting/doing reactive/plyo work, all that will take care of itself.  Trying to isolate tendons, especially with isos is not a good idea, it may sound good in theory, but in the real world, it just doesnt pan out.
Relax.

$ick3nin.vend3tta

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: The reactive effect
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2011, 09:53:59 pm »
0
Thats a dead end road youre looking at going down man, trying to target tendons specifically with isos instead of training movements/muscles is a terrible idea and it never works out for anyone.  If youre getting stronger, training explosively, jumping, sprinting/doing reactive/plyo work, all that will take care of itself.  Trying to isolate tendons, especially with isos is not a good idea, it may sound good in theory, but in the real world, it just doesnt pan out.

Check this out. Thoughts on the %'s?.

Original Link: http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2007/08000/Plyometric_Vs_Isometric_Training_Influences_on.55.aspx


Quote
Plyometric Vs.Isometric Training Influences on Tendon Properties and Muscle Output.

Abstract.


The purpose of this study was to concurrently determine the effect that plyometric and isometric training has on tendon stiffness (K) and muscle output characteristics to compare any subsequent changes. Thirteen men trained the lower limbs either plyometrically or isometrically 2-3 times a week for a 6-week period. Medial gastrocnemius tendon stiffness was measured in vivo using ultrasonography during ramped isometric contractions before and after training. Mechanical output variables were measured using a force plate during concentric and isometric efforts. Significant (p < 0.05) training-induced increases in tendon K were seen for the plyometric (29.4%; 49.0 < 10.8 to 63.4 < 9.2 N[middle dot]mm-1) and isometric groups (61.6%; 43.9 < 2.5 to 71.0 < 7.4 N[middle dot]mm-1). Statistically similar increases in rate of force development and jump height were also seen for both training groups, with increases of 18.9 and 58.6% for the plyometric group and 16.7 and 64.3% for the isometric group, respectively. Jump height was found to be significantly correlated with tendon stiffness, such that stiffness could explain 21% of the variance in jump height. Plyometric training has been shown to place large stresses on the body, which can lead to a potential for injury, whereas explosive isometric training has been shown here to provide similar benefits to that of plyometric training with respect to the measured variables, but with reduced impact forces, and would therefore provide a useful adjunct for athletic training programs within a 6-week time frame.

(C) 2007 National Strength and Conditioning Association