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Quote from: JC on April 16, 2011, 12:21:03 am

Explain how increasing your strength improves all of those things. You can't. I'm being 100% serious. You are never pushing someone with your hands in basketball, you are never pulling heavy things, you are never pushing heavy things. Think about it.

Being a "banger" has to do with mass, not strength.

I guess I just played in more physically competitive leagues and pick-up than you do. I've never played in a game where I wasn't shoved or shoved back. Do you not use your arms to help gain position for rebounding? Does strength not help you hold on the ball better? Does it not help you throw it further on a pass? Can it not help you block a shot from a strong finisher? Does it not allow you to steal a ball from a strong dribbler or out of persons arms? What about jump-ball situations where you're tied up? It sure helps you rip the ball out. What about dribbling? Stronger your arms, the faster you can push the ball away to the ground and the faster it will come back to you. All that is upper body. There is a reason that hs/college/pro players don't -only- work out their legs and core. Upper body strength is very important in the game of basketball.

Sure, you don't need the same amount of strength that football players or hockey players may need. And you don't have to be a bodybuilder. But getting to an above average strength level for your body/physique can only help you. In fact, I don't know of a single way that you can't get an athletic advantage in basketball by being stronger in the upper body. If you work out hard, and practice basketball while working out to get stronger, there's absolutely no reason it should hurt your game at all.

I really don't see how you can say it won't help -any- of those situations I listed. Your reasoning for just saying it won't is beyond me. I'm not trying to be argumentative or a douchebag or anything, I just don't see it.

I agree 100%!

Nope. You're not getting it so I'm not even going to explain it.

Wow. You're really good at this. You still haven't given me anything to prove your point. You just keep saying "no, you're wrong" whenever I post an example.

All of the relevant ones you said have to do due with mass, not strength. You're going to get much stronger by gaining that mass, obviously, but that's not the point.

Mass and strength are not the same thing, I think we can agree on that. Mass doesn't equal strength, I think we can agree on that. Just because somebody is 300lbs doesn't mean they can pass it further than someone who is 200lbs but is stronger than the 300lb-er. The way I'm understanding you're example is that you're saying the 300lber, because of his mass, can pass it further than the 200lber regardless just because he is bigger. (I used passing in this because it is one of the examples I gave.) Strength definitely plays into each of the things I listed, and there is no doubt to that.

I don't need to give you anything to prove my point because it's obvious. You want lower body strength and overall mass to outpower your opponents.  Getting stronger to dribble faster? Really? You can dribble really fast through pracitce. Look at the and1 players. They are skinny and weak as shit. Passing? Look at steve nash. Practice. Swatting at the ball? Neither. Boxing out and backing down? lower body strength and overall mass. It's physics.  Fighting through picks? Mass and speed. You can't push the guy out of the way with your hands. That's a foul.

I can go on and on, but it's retarded to do so. The ball is so light you don't need to be strong to play basketball. If being strong was so useful joey graham wouldn't be useless.

I never said you had to be strong to play basketball. And being strong doesn't equate to having basketball skill. I never said that. My -whole point- is that being stronger than you currently are DOES NOT HURT you in any way. It can ONLY make you better. As long as your skill level doesn't go down (aka you keep practicing to get better) and don't just stop playing to work out, then getting stronger can only enhance your game. So your Joey Graham comment is as useless as Joey Graham himself is.

And you're right about using your hands being a foul...if it was called. Did you play competitively after middle school? I honestly am just curious. Because just about every league I played in after that age group was extremely physical. The more competitive, the more physical. Watch a top HS game, a college game, an NBA game. They are very physical, and they use their upper bodies to gain advantages. In their basic meanings, yes, you should only use your legs to box out, in an actual game that you're competing against top-flight competition, you use your whole body. I'm not saying you should teach kids to use their arms, but the fact of the matter is that in the top-levels of the game it is a requirement.

So here's what I'm saying. I will agree with you that in general principal when teaching a kid, you should not use your upper body in most of those things (except passing, dribbling, etc when you have the ball), but as far as boxing out, rebounding, blocking shots, etc it is a requirement at the higher levels. You must play physically with your whole body or just get manhandled at the higher levels.

And your AND1 comment about dribblers being skinny, I guarantee you that they are stronger than the first time they touched the ball. Through repetition, through constant dribbling, etc their strength grew. Sure they didn't gain mass, but they got stronger with the ball. So my point is still valid, they got stronger over time through repetition (not weightlifting necessarily), but stronger nonetheless.

Yes I played middle school and high school. Everything you're saying is because of increased mass not upper body strength. We'll agree to disagree. I never said getting stronger was a bad thing.

And you're agreeing with me anyway. Get better at passing/dribbling/boxing out/swatting through practice, and leave the weight room to get better at compound lifts and eat enough to put on mass. Like I said in the original post

"Just get stronger in general in your upperbody. If you shoot correctly your power should come from your lower body. You'll develop more range by practicing. Lifting isn't going to help with that."

Quote from: JC on April 16, 2011, 03:43:43 pm

Yes I played middle school and high school. Everything you're saying is because of increased mass not upper body strength. We'll agree to disagree. I never said getting stronger was a bad thing.

And you're agreeing with me anyway. Get better at passing/dribbling/boxing out/swatting through practice, and leave the weight room to get better at compound lifts and eat enough to put on mass. Like I said in the original post

"Just get stronger in general in your upperbody. If you shoot correctly your power should come from your lower body. You'll develop more range by practicing. Lifting isn't going to help with that."

Hey I was reading your back and forth with JelloPuddinPup, and I am legitimately interested in this topic because I have been wondering this same thing for a while now.  So are you saying that, if there were 2 players, Players A and B with same skill set who both are 6'0" and 180lbs, but player A is 15% BF, while player B is 5% BF.  And assuming they both have equal lower body strength/power, and the leaner player B is stronger as well (upper body), they will still be equal players?

Whoever has the better skill set is the better player. That situation is never going to occur though. It's always better to be leaner.

Quote from: JC on April 16, 2011, 09:05:24 pm

Quote from: Ineedtodunk on April 16, 2011, 08:52:30 pm

Quote from: JC on April 16, 2011, 03:43:43 pm

Yes I played middle school and high school. Everything you're saying is because of increased mass not upper body strength. We'll agree to disagree. I never said getting stronger was a bad thing.

And you're agreeing with me anyway. Get better at passing/dribbling/boxing out/swatting through practice, and leave the weight room to get better at compound lifts and eat enough to put on mass. Like I said in the original post

"Just get stronger in general in your upperbody. If you shoot correctly your power should come from your lower body. You'll develop more range by practicing. Lifting isn't going to help with that."

Hey I was reading your back and forth with JelloPuddinPup, and I am legitimately interested in this topic because I have been wondering this same thing for a while now.  So are you saying that, if there were 2 players, Players A and B with same skill set who both are 6'0" and 180lbs, but player A is 15% BF, while player B is 5% BF.  And assuming they both have equal lower body strength/power, and the leaner player B is stronger as well (upper body), they will still be equal players?

Whoever has the better skill set is the better player. That situation is never going to occur though. It's always better to be leaner.

.................................. you're completely missing my point

Okay, lets say 2 players 6'0" 180lbs / exactly equally skilled / same body composition / same lower body power

But player A can bench press 300 lbs, while player B can only bench 180lbs.

Does player A have an advantage in basketball over player B?

I ask this, since you said mass is what helps in basketball, not strength when it comes to upper body.

Player B would be just as strong in real life. I'm not missing the point, you just changed the situation. But anyway, Player A isn't stronger than player B, he can just display his strength better on the bench press.  They would be the same player.

I know what you're trying to ask me, but that situation is impossible. And if it did happen, it wouldn't make a difference. F=MA

This goes back to another thread, people don't realize that weight lifting isn't the only way to display strength. If 1 guy squats 500 pounds and another squats 450, that doesn't necessarily mean the guy who squats 500 pounds is stronger. Weight lifting is a sport in itself. There's skills you develop besides actual strength gains.


And to clear things up for the retarded, I'm not saying don't get stronger. Getting stronger and eating a lot is the best way to put on mass. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Just assume player A has a lot more upper body strength.  Who wins?

Who wins the game, a lot will depend on how good your team-mates are too.