Author Topic: T-DUBS biggest secret. Elastic winding & coiling. (Read 51791 times)

T0ddday · « **Reply #60 on:** August 22, 2011, 04:37:30 pm »

"There has to be a coiling/twisting/spiralling element of the myosin filaments to generate great elastic energy."

The coiling/twisting/spiralling is created between joints. There might be twisting at the ankle, the knee, the hips..... But there is simply no evidence that you can cause your myosin filaments to twist. In fact the conformational change between myosin and actin filaments is regulated by chemistry and cannot be changed by coiling between your joints. It may be possible that this coiling takeoff results in a much stronger contraction, but the effect would be neural not a physical change in myosin filaments.

Raptor · « **Reply #61 on:** August 22, 2011, 05:04:42 pm »

Quote from: T0ddday on August 22, 2011, 04:37:30 pm

"There has to be a coiling/twisting/spiralling element of the myosin filaments to generate great elastic energy."

The coiling/twisting/spiralling is created between joints. There might be twisting at the ankle, the knee, the hips..... But there is simply no evidence that you can cause your myosin filaments to twist. In fact the conformational change between myosin and actin filaments is regulated by chemistry and cannot be changed by coiling between your joints. It may be possible that this coiling takeoff results in a much stronger contraction, but the effect would be neural not a physical change in myosin filaments.

Exactly^^^

That twist stresses the CNS into better recruitment since there will be an increased tension generated by the twist.

$ick3nin.v3nd3tta · « **Reply #62 on:** August 23, 2011, 02:17:16 am »

Quote from: adarqui on August 22, 2011, 08:16:52 am

relax with dumb posts like this. im literally ready to ban you over this dumb post..

area51 can't replicate t-dub's athleticism? either can golden child, young hollywood, air up there, etc?

Then delete the thread that belongs in Hall of Fame. I got everything I need from it. I have probably discovered the best exercise for developing full body elasticity (still thinking how to make it even better).

You only have to perform his technique to feel how much torque your putting through the body. IT WORKS MAN. Wouldn't say it, wouldn't include it in my program if not.

Next time you watch the Rucker Park NYC dunk vid, think about the yellow rod in the vid.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNvi1kdo4Wg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNvi1kdo4Wg</a>

^^^

Quote from: Raptor on August 22, 2011, 05:04:42 pm

That twist stresses the CNS into better recruitment since there will be an increased tension generated by the twist.

^^^

Quote

on the way down

Perfect exercise.

adarqui · « **Reply #63 on:** August 23, 2011, 08:56:08 am »

Quote from: Smooth on August 23, 2011, 04:24:39 am

Let me just clear things up for everyone.

Quote actually isn't made up; it was taken by Pavel Tsatsouline in a magazine publication.

there's no way pavel wrote that idiotic paragraph

Quote

This actually does have an effect on jumping and in TDub's plant, but not as SV understands it. Try this simple exercise to understand what Pavel was talking about. Take your right foot and place it against something with a corner/wedge. It could be a dresser,table leg, wall, pole etc. Now keep the gap between your big toe and the rest of your toes between the wedge. Generate force downwards(maximally or sub maximally is irrelevant) and notice the tension in the lower leg complex. Now try it again but this time induce a clockwise twist and notice you are creating more tension. TDub's ability to do this is aided greatly by the fact that he is HEAVILY pigeon-toed. This "elastic winding" is especially prominent in athlete's whose knees come close together in a bilateral plant.

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What SV seems to confuse as elastic winding is TDub's ability to convert horizontal momentum into vertical momentum. He twists his body in such a way that he may approach the rim at nearly full speed without losing momentum into his plant. This has nothing to do with elastic winding and is simply instinctual preservation of momentum.

i'll never be able to do that because i dunk cockeye'd, LR plant with righty dunks.. same reason we rarely see aut/gc taking off from tdub-like distance, if they were lefty's they'd be able to do it.

$ick3nin.v3nd3tta · « **Reply #64 on:** August 23, 2011, 02:03:46 pm »

Quote from: adarqui on August 23, 2011, 08:56:08 am

there's no way Pavel wrote that idiotic paragraph.

Guyton (1984) speculated that once the actin and myosin filaments have maximally overlapped, more tension can be realized by spiralling of the myosin filaments. A change in the length of the pitch of the actin helix may also boost force production during a very intense muscular contraction (Verkhoshansky & Siff, 1996). Both processes can be compared to twisting a rubber band after it has fully contracted.

(added to OP).

Quote from: Smooth on August 23, 2011, 04:24:39 am

Let me just clear things up for everyone.

Quote actually isn't made up; it was taken by Pavel Tsatsouline in a magazine publication.

TDub's ability to do this is aided greatly by the fact that he is HEAVILY pigeon-toed. This "elastic winding" is especially prominent in athlete's whose knees come close together in a bilateral plant.

The pigeon-toed comment is interesting. I never noticed him being pigeon-toed in the slo-mo. What happens with guys who are pigeon-toed is they create more torsion/tension in the body. It builds more energy.

Could that be a result of all the twisting from dunkin' or is it genetic?.

Quote from: Smooth on August 23, 2011, 04:24:39 am

What SV seems to confuse as elastic winding is TDub's ability to convert horizontal momentum into vertical momentum. He twists his body in such a way that he may approach the rim at nearly full speed without losing momentum into his plant. This has nothing to do with elastic winding and is simply instinctual preservation of momentum.

I disagree.

There is a huge elastic element to T-DUB's dunkin'. It's not purely based on momentum. One look at the Rucker Park NYC dunk vid at 0:23 will tell you that.

$ick3nin.v3nd3tta · « **Reply #65 on:** August 23, 2011, 03:20:46 pm »

The Catapult Mechanism: Elastic Recoil of Fascial Tissues.

Quote

Kangaroos can hop much farther and faster than can be explained by the force of the contraction of their leg muscles. Under closer scrutiny, scientists discovered that a spring -like action is behind the unique ability: the so-called catapult mechanism (Kram & Dawson 1998). Here the tendons and the fascia of the legs are tensioned like elastic bands. The release of this stored energy is what makes the amazing hops possible. Hardy surprising, scientist thereafter found the same mechanism is also used by gazelles. These animals are also capable of per-forming impressive leaping as well as running, though their musculature is not especially powerful. On the contrary, gazelles are generally considered to be rather delicate, making the springy ease of their incredible jumps all the more interesting.

Fascia expresses a significant increased elastic storage capacity (how much is still not truly known).

How is it developed?.

One way is preparatory counter-movement. "Multidirectional movements, with slight changes in angle are utilized; this might include sideways or diagonal movement variations as well as spiralling rotations. With this method, large areas of the fascial network are simultaneously involved".

Now I can truly see why T-DUBS movement is a perfect dunkin' exercise. It's full body.

(added to OP).

Raptor · « **Reply #66 on:** August 23, 2011, 05:09:04 pm »

Quote from: $ick3nin.v3nd3tta on August 23, 2011, 03:20:46 pm

The Catapult Mechanism: Elastic Recoil of Fascial Tissues.

Quote
Kangaroos can hop much farther and faster than can be explained by the force of the contraction of their leg muscles. Under closer scrutiny, scientists discovered that a spring -like action is behind the unique ability: the so-called catapult mechanism (Kram & Dawson 1998). Here the tendons and the fascia of the legs are tensioned like elastic bands. The release of this stored energy is what makes the amazing hops possible. Hardy surprising, scientist thereafter found the same mechanism is also used by gazelles. These animals are also capable of per-forming impressive leaping as well as running, though their musculature is not especially powerful. On the contrary, gazelles are generally considered to be rather delicate, making the springy ease of their incredible jumps all the more interesting.

Fascia expresses a significant increased elastic storage capacity (how much is still not truly known).

How is it developed?.

One way is preparatory counter-movement. "Multidirectional movements, with slight changes in angle are utilized; this might include sideways or diagonal movement variations as well as spiralling rotations. With this method, large areas of the fascial network are simultaneously involved".

Now I can truly see why T-DUBS movement is a perfect dunkin' exercise. It's full body.

(added to OP).

Where is that quoted from?

T0ddday · « **Reply #67 on:** August 23, 2011, 07:34:50 pm »

This comes from an advertisement not scientific study:

www.somatics.de/FascialFitnessTerraRosa.pdf

The advertisement is pretty dishonest as well. Kram and Dawson's paper is about whether hopping is favourable in arid climates, their paper never mentions the word catapult, nor do they mention gazelles. The statement is quite silly because most mammals (including humans) can jump farther than can be explained by just the force of muscular contraction. This is why we jump father after an approach, we are able to store energy in our tendons. This is why plyometric training in addition to strength training allows people to jump higher.

If you believe that this tdubs athlete is able to jump high because of some technical prowess that is fine. But to claim he is able to twist his myosin filaments and then severely misquote an advertisement which severely misquotes some scientific papers is unnecessary and does a disservice to those who read your posts.

It also makes people refuse to consider the possibility that this athletes take off mechanics allow him to store more energy from his approach, something which is entirely possible. However, I will tell you that I have extensively studied long jump mechanics and even written papers concerning the long jump and that Carl Lewis and Mike Powell both jump close to 30 feet and have drastically different takeoff mechanics and takeoff velocity. So even if this athlete uses this take off to achieve his high leap, it does not suggest at all that this is the only way to do it.

$ick3nin.v3nd3tta · « **Reply #68 on:** August 24, 2011, 12:04:50 am »

Quote from: T0ddday on August 23, 2011, 07:34:50 pm

This comes from an advertisement not scientific study:

www.somatics.de/FascialFitnessTerraRosa.pdf

The advertisement is pretty dishonest as well. Kram and Dawson's paper is about whether hopping is favourable in arid climates, their paper never mentions the word catapult, nor do they mention gazelles. The statement is quite silly because most mammals (including humans) can jump farther than can be explained by just the force of muscular contraction. This is why we jump father after an approach, we are able to store energy in our tendons. This is why plyometric training in addition to strength training allows people to jump higher.

If you believe that this tdubs athlete is able to jump high because of some technical prowess that is fine. But to claim he is able to twist his myosin filaments and then severely misquote an advertisement which severely misquotes some scientific papers is unnecessary and does a disservice to those who read your posts.

It also makes people refuse to consider the possibility that this athletes take off mechanics allow him to store more energy from his approach, something which is entirely possible. However, I will tell you that I have extensively studied long jump mechanics and even written papers concerning the long jump and that Carl Lewis and Mike Powell both jump close to 30 feet and have drastically different takeoff mechanics and takeoff velocity. So even if this athlete uses this take off to achieve his high leap, it does not suggest at all that this is the only way to do it.

The source states; 'Here the tendons and the fascia of the legs are tensioned like elastic bands. The release of this stored energy is what makes the amazing hops possible'. Its exactly what it says on the paper, a catapult mechanism. It's the exact same principal.

They didn't need to mention gazelles, they could have refereed to deer, proghorns, cheetahs, puma's etc which use the exact same mechanism. There all in the same boat as kangaroo's.

Can anyone give me the low down on T-DUBS plyometric & strength training program?. For me to add any exercise into my program, it has to be GREAT. The most recent addition is T-DUBS planting technique for 8-12 continuous reps (core compressed). Man, it's a killer. It's my core that takes the brunt but the plant/then change of direction/to plant etc has to be hitting the Achilles just the same.

I think comparing long jump to dunkin' is like apples & oranges. I think long jump is more horizontal force based where as dunkin' to be more vertical force. There is also the consideration of the run ups too.

Picture Carl Lewis at 27MPH at the free throw line trying to dunk. Even if he pulled off the dunk, he could really end up hurting himself.

T0ddday · « **Reply #69 on:** August 24, 2011, 12:18:29 am »

Yeah imagine a jumper trying to dunk. Totally horrible comparison:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqymSa79vqg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqymSa79vqg</a>

$ick3nin.v3nd3tta · « **Reply #70 on:** August 24, 2011, 01:32:52 am »

Quote from: T0ddday on August 24, 2011, 12:18:29 am

Totally horrible comparison.

+1.

Who would you say has the most elasticated Achilles tendons out of T-DUB & Conley? & reason why?, comparing that vid to the Rucker Park NYC dunk vid.

Including sprinters, long/triple jumpers, I think T-DUB could have the most elasticated Achilles tendons on the planet?. Doesn't mean he's going to run faster/jump farther but the way he springs off the ground is just incredible IMO. But it's a full body thing.

I whole heartedly believe it's more to do with his technique & dedication than anything else IMO, including any secondary exercise outside of dunkin'/even genetics. Just using your own bodyweight/forces can be enough resistance to produce awesome results, just add in great technique which complies with OP quote.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui2_VKFnaF8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui2_VKFnaF8</a>

Raptor · « **Reply #71 on:** August 24, 2011, 05:09:44 am »

Quote from: $ick3nin.v3nd3tta on August 24, 2011, 01:32:52 am

Quote from: T0ddday on August 24, 2011, 12:18:29 am
Totally horrible comparison.

+1.

One of the funniest things I have seen in a while.

adarqui · « **Reply #72 on:** August 24, 2011, 10:23:25 am »

Quote from: $ick3nin.v3nd3tta on August 24, 2011, 01:32:52 am

Quote from: T0ddday on August 24, 2011, 12:18:29 am
Totally horrible comparison.

+1.

Who would you say has the most elasticated Achilles tendons out of T-DUB & Conley? & reason why?, comparing that vid to the Rucker Park NYC dunk vid.

so if t-dub has a 51" vert, and stefan holm has a 51" vert, or area-51 has a 51" vert, or even adam linkenauger has a 50" vert, why the god damn fuck do you keep idolizing t-dub compared to everyone else?

Quote

Including sprinters, long/triple jumpers, I think T-DUB could have the most elasticated Achilles tendons on the planet?. Doesn't mean he's going to run faster/jump farther but the way he springs off the ground is just incredible IMO. But it's a full body thing.

if he has the most "elasticated" (lmfao) tendons on the planet, then why do you keep referring to his style of plant? if t-dub is in fact more like a kangaroo, why does his plant matter at all? his plant becomes a biproduct of his genetic advantages, not the other way around.. his plant didn't create his freak-like tendons..... his freak-like tendons created his plant.

anyway.. t-dub is hardly the most reactive athlete on the planet, single leg jumper's with similar verts will ALWAYS win that battle.. t-dub is freaky strong & very reactive, sure, but "most elastic athlete on the planet" ? not even close.

Quote

I whole heartedly believe it's more to do with his technique & dedication than anything else IMO, including any secondary exercise outside of dunkin'/even genetics. Just using your own bodyweight/forces can be enough resistance to produce awesome results, just add in great technique which complies with OP quote.

oh ok, you just answered my above question.. his technique and dedication formed his tendon length, tendon insertions, and fiber composition.

Quote

why do you keep linking that boingscam video, we get it aready, relax.

adarqui · « **Reply #73 on:** August 24, 2011, 10:26:30 am »

Quote from: T0ddday on August 23, 2011, 07:34:50 pm

This comes from an advertisement not scientific study:

www.somatics.de/FascialFitnessTerraRosa.pdf

The advertisement is pretty dishonest as well. Kram and Dawson's paper is about whether hopping is favourable in arid climates, their paper never mentions the word catapult, nor do they mention gazelles. The statement is quite silly because most mammals (including humans) can jump farther than can be explained by just the force of muscular contraction. This is why we jump father after an approach, we are able to store energy in our tendons. This is why plyometric training in addition to strength training allows people to jump higher.

If you believe that this tdubs athlete is able to jump high because of some technical prowess that is fine. But to claim he is able to twist his myosin filaments and then severely misquote an advertisement which severely misquotes some scientific papers is unnecessary and does a disservice to those who read your posts.

It also makes people refuse to consider the possibility that this athletes take off mechanics allow him to store more energy from his approach, something which is entirely possible. However, I will tell you that I have extensively studied long jump mechanics and even written papers concerning the long jump and that Carl Lewis and Mike Powell both jump close to 30 feet and have drastically different takeoff mechanics and takeoff velocity. So even if this athlete uses this take off to achieve his high leap, it does not suggest at all that this is the only way to do it.

good post.

adarqui · « **Reply #74 on:** August 24, 2011, 12:02:01 pm »

made some gif's to include in my posts from now on..

Adarq.org

News:

Author Topic: T-DUBS biggest secret. Elastic winding & coiling. (Read 51791 times)

T0ddday

Re: T-DUBS biggest secret. Elastic winding & coiling.

Raptor

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$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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adarqui

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$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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Raptor

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T0ddday

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$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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T0ddday

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$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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Raptor

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adarqui

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adarqui

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adarqui

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