Author Topic: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?  (Read 22362 times)

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LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2012, 12:51:22 pm »
+1
strong post is strong. thanks.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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steven-miller

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2012, 05:10:06 pm »
0
@T0dday: I am curious about your thoughts on two things you said.
One is that you would have most athletes (5'10 and taller) perform single leg jumps if the goal was to have them dunk ASAP. This is interesting to me because I believe that this is in contrast to what most would think to be the best method. I do not know, because as a volleyball player I have never performed single leg jumps, but I cannot see the reason why it should be easier to increase the single leg jump compared to double leg jump. Could you elaborate on this?

The other thing is me wondering why you gave such a low recommendation for squat progress in the program you posted (30 lbs per 8 weeks). I said earlier that anything less than 100 lbs squat increase in 6 months would be "fooling around". Obviously this depends on level of training advancement quite a bit, but I stand by that in the case of a young, healthy, athletic and underweight person with less than a 2x bw squat. I tend to think that the 100 lbs is in fact a conservative number of what is possible to achieve in that time frame for a novice of said characteristics. In the given case, LBSS squatted 245 lbs x 3 x 8 as his last work-out. I say he could squat 380 lbs x 5, if not more, in half a year if he eats properly. Do you disagree?

LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2012, 05:40:05 pm »
0
@T0dday: I am curious about your thoughts on two things you said.
One is that you would have most athletes (5'10 and taller) perform single leg jumps if the goal was to have them dunk ASAP. This is interesting to me because I believe that this is in contrast to what most would think to be the best method. I do not know, because as a volleyball player I have never performed single leg jumps, but I cannot see the reason why it should be easier to increase the single leg jump compared to double leg jump. Could you elaborate on this?

The other thing is me wondering why you gave such a low recommendation for squat progress in the program you posted (30 lbs per 8 weeks). I said earlier that anything less than 100 lbs squat increase in 6 months would be "fooling around". Obviously this depends on level of training advancement quite a bit, but I stand by that in the case of a young, healthy, athletic and underweight person with less than a 2x bw squat. I tend to think that the 100 lbs is in fact a conservative number of what is possible to achieve in that time frame for a novice of said characteristics. In the given case, LBSS squatted 245 lbs x 3 x 8 as his last work-out. I say he could squat 380 lbs x 5, if not more, in half a year if he eats properly. Do you disagree?

two things:

1. i have a 2x bw squat. i squatted 355 at ~172 pounds. admittedly, it's lower now because i've been traveling and unable to train properly.
2. also because i've been traveling, i'm ramping up squatting carefully. hence the very light weight so far in my last few workouts.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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steven-miller

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2012, 06:18:55 pm »
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@T0dday: I am curious about your thoughts on two things you said.
One is that you would have most athletes (5'10 and taller) perform single leg jumps if the goal was to have them dunk ASAP. This is interesting to me because I believe that this is in contrast to what most would think to be the best method. I do not know, because as a volleyball player I have never performed single leg jumps, but I cannot see the reason why it should be easier to increase the single leg jump compared to double leg jump. Could you elaborate on this?

The other thing is me wondering why you gave such a low recommendation for squat progress in the program you posted (30 lbs per 8 weeks). I said earlier that anything less than 100 lbs squat increase in 6 months would be "fooling around". Obviously this depends on level of training advancement quite a bit, but I stand by that in the case of a young, healthy, athletic and underweight person with less than a 2x bw squat. I tend to think that the 100 lbs is in fact a conservative number of what is possible to achieve in that time frame for a novice of said characteristics. In the given case, LBSS squatted 245 lbs x 3 x 8 as his last work-out. I say he could squat 380 lbs x 5, if not more, in half a year if he eats properly. Do you disagree?

two things:

1. i have a 2x bw squat. i squatted 355 at ~172 pounds. admittedly, it's lower now because i've been traveling and unable to train properly.
2. also because i've been traveling, i'm ramping up squatting carefully. hence the very light weight so far in my last few workouts.

I know that you did have a 2 x bw squat and I do not doubt that you will get to that level again soon. But you are currently not in condition to effectively train with weights that correspond with a 355 single, are you? Therefore your current training weights have to be the starting point of the calculation, otherwise it is going to be false.

All I am really saying is that a reasonable approach should be taken to your strength training. And reasonable IMO means to optimize gains in maximal strength first and as long as it has a measurable impact on the performance variable that you want to improve. And "optimize" implies to create conditions, that allow the maximum possible improvement to happen, bar a few reasonable boundary conditions (explosive movements need to be trained; skill training needs to take place; but both should interfere as little as possible).
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 06:21:56 pm by steven-miller »

LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2012, 07:39:34 pm »
0
true, true. to be fair to myself, i did not say that i was going to launch right into this program. if you look at the OP, my plan is still to ramp up carefully back to where i was, with basic jumps and squats, and then go from there. hell, i'm still gaining back the weight i lost after three weeks of um, well, diarrhea. so we are in complete agreement about what i should do right now. the question is more what's next. you've made your opinion pretty clear, which i appreciate.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

AGC

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2012, 08:52:16 pm »
0

*** Track Workout ***

1) Dynamic Warmup, Leg swings, Fast leg, Skips, Strides
2) 10 Measured overhead backward shot tosses (16lbs, aim to get better at these every workout, do these on a field where you can measure your throw, more than 13 yards is required, getting close to 15 yards is good, close to 17 is very very good).

- Bounding/ Jumping ( choose about 3 of them and also include the running SL vertical jump and REALLY focus on improvement) -

1) 3-6 standing broad jumps
2) 3-6 Depth broad jumps (should go a lot farther on these)
3) 2-3 4 double leg bounds, 8 DL leg bounds (again measure these, hopefully you 4 DL bound is better than 4X standing broad jump)
4) Measured Single leg bounds** (ie LLLL or RRRR)
5) Measured Standing Triple jumps**
6) Running SL vertical jump (3 step, 6 step)
 
- Running -

1) 3-4 Full effort measured 60m sprints (Hand time will suffice as long as you have a buddy who can provide somewhat repeatable times)
2) Tempo Work (If necessary for fat loss, skip if you do weights following track work)

** Either do these full intensity and try to progress OR if you don't feel like you have the hang of it (ie you go less than 10 yards, or you don't get a full cycle in each leg or can't coordinate the arm swing... Then include them as part of the warmup and drill the form until you have it)

**** Weights/Gym Workout ****

1) Warmup
2) Powerclean or Powersnatch -> work up to a challenging weight for a couple triples
3) Squat.   Work up to a challenging but not max single.  Do 2-3 sets of 3-5 with 80% of this.
4) Standing Push Press
5) Deadlifts (Optional)
6) Circuit (Here is where you can do RDLs, Calves, Pullups, etc.  This stuff is important but your mindset when you come into the gym should be in order of preference:  Squat more, Snatch\clean more, push press more/deadlift more.  Thinking about much more than this will cause you to lose focus. )
7) Standing vertical jumps/Running vertical jumps [10 each]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's really all you need.  Try to do the track/bound workout 2x per week and then weights 2x week.  If you have more time then you can add another day of weights or add 1-2 more days of track tempo (ie 6-8 x 150 or 200m at 75%) if you need it for fat loss. You can arrange it however you want such as Monday: Track Workout, Tues: Weights, W: Track tempo, R: Track workout (AM), Weights (PM).  Friday rest, Sat: Weights (AM) Track Tempo (PM).

The goal for a template like this is for you to make progress.  In 8 weeks make you goal to add 10-15 pounds to your powerclean 20-30 to your squat and a couple inches or feet to all your measured jumps.


That looks like a great program. I might steal it after I've gotten sick of mine! It looks like a lot of volume for someone not experienced in track work though (note: I am not calling LBSS a novice  :)). 

I'm wondering though why you don't think things like hip thrusts and BSS are important? I have added BSS and have increased weight every week (I was very weak in this to start). I can't see how that isn't measured progress. Especially since LBSS is a DL jumper; also Joel Smith has talked about how good hip thrusts can be (http://justflyperformance.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/real-world-validation-of-hip-thrusts.html). You'd know better than me of course, I just interested for my own training.

@LBSS I definitely have to second what Raptor said on two things:

- Recovery is definitely important for getting in jumps sessions. For me, I think doing the ON-ON-OFF three week cycle has helped me manage the fatigue that Raptor was talking about which stops you jumping at a high intensity level.

- I'd do Joel Smith's 1-legged jump program first before you decide to do Todday's program (which again I think looks great for you).

T0ddday

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2012, 08:46:00 am »
+1
Good questions.

@T0dday: I am curious about your thoughts on two things you said.
One is that you would have most athletes (5'10 and taller) perform single leg jumps if the goal was to have them dunk ASAP. This is interesting to me because I believe that this is in contrast to what most would think to be the best method. I do not know, because as a volleyball player I have never performed single leg jumps, but I cannot see the reason why it should be easier to increase the single leg jump compared to double leg jump. Could you elaborate on this?

Sure.  As you well know as a volleyball player, both jumps require a good deal of skill, (ie. someone who doesn't jump at all can initially increase their leap very quickly with practice).   However, because of the greater approach speed involved in the single leg running jump, most athletes are essentially "least" skilled in this jump.  I find if you instruct most non-jumpers (eg. not triple/high/long jumpers) to attempt a maximal long jump, they won't benefit much (if any) from an approach longer than about 5-6 steps, which suggests a lot of room for improvement if they learn to convert a greater amount of their sprint speed into the jump.  Of course, this is the horizontal long jump (where takeoff velocities are higher) AND I train primarily with sprinters (who reach much faster speeds as approach length increases than non-sprinters)....  but I still believe most decent athletes are underperforming relative to their strength/speed more in the single leg jump than the double leg jump.

Essentially, I think the athlete in question LBSS will have difficulty at this point increasing his takeoff velocity in his double leg jump without getting stronger.  While you provide excellent advice on how to get him stronger, the timeline is just not as immediate, he has to get stronger over multiple months, possibly gain a bit of weight, then learn how to express that strength in the double leg jump, etc.  The beauty of the single leg jump is most athletes have a large surplus of horizontal velocity in our approach; converting slightly more of it into a running single leg jump can provide a decent increase to a running vertical over a very quick time period.  The caveat being that this certainly won't continue to work (to the degree that increasing strength increases DLJ) as he get's more efficient at taking off at higher speeds.  Additionally, if he is a seriously basketballer, it might be a little peculiar looking if his dunks require an approach of close to the entire the length of the court and a perfectly timed bounce of the basketball to provide him a dunk....  However, he ONLY asked to dunk, and if he's quite close (within a couple inches) and he's under a time crunch... I think the single leg jump is the best way to get their quickly.



The other thing is me wondering why you gave such a low recommendation for squat progress in the program you posted (30 lbs per 8 weeks). I said earlier that anything less than 100 lbs squat increase in 6 months would be "fooling around". Obviously this depends on level of training advancement quite a bit, but I stand by that in the case of a young, healthy, athletic and underweight person with less than a 2x bw squat. I tend to think that the 100 lbs is in fact a conservative number of what is possible to achieve in that time frame for a novice of said characteristics. In the given case, LBSS squatted 245 lbs x 3 x 8 as his last work-out. I say he could squat 380 lbs x 5, if not more, in half a year if he eats properly. Do you disagree?


As far as your 100 pound estimate, I agree, but I would add that it's hard in general to put an exact number on it as it depends on a lot of factors such as the squat style (ie high-bar/low-bar) and the build/strength-capacity of the athlete (ie a 6-7 skinny 220 pound athlete squatting 400 will have a harder time reaching 500 than a shorter athlete might have adding 100 pounds), but I would actually argue that this estimation is pretty similar to mine!  I came up with my number from the argument that an athlete with the characteristics you describe should be able to add approximately 5 pounds most weeks if they have proper nutrition and recovery (8x5 = 40, [ 30 to be safe ]).  So 30 pounds per 8 weeks after 26 weeks ( 6 months ) would come out to about 100 pounds, or your conservative estimate.   

As far as LBSS in general, 380x5 in 6-months sounds doable but I don't know if I would would use it as a low-end goal for him.  Especially because he is not a professional athlete (real world responsibilities tend to slow us down from goals which assume 6-months of really consistent training, he has already mentioned he has to travel often to far parts of the globe for work).  Additionally, I think rep weight goals are also more difficult to predict that heavy singles.  Assuming 245x8 equates to a training max of 315 then I think 405x1 is a reasonable training max for him to shoot for over your 6 month period, provided consistent training and good nutrition.

T0ddday

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2012, 09:16:47 am »
0

That looks like a great program. I might steal it after I've gotten sick of mine! It looks like a lot of volume for someone not experienced in track work though (note: I am not calling LBSS a novice  :)). 

Thanks a lot.  Don't forget that the program advises you only to do 3-4 of the bounding sessions.  The program is actually adopted from an offseason workout for sprinters!  All the running except the 60m sprints should extensive tempo and should actually function primarily as recovery (although it might take a bit of getting used to if you don't have any track background).


I'm wondering though why you don't think things like hip thrusts and BSS are important? I have added BSS and have increased weight every week (I was very weak in this to start). I can't see how that isn't measured progress. Especially since LBSS is a DL jumper; also Joel Smith has talked about how good hip thrusts can be (http://justflyperformance.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/real-world-validation-of-hip-thrusts.html). You'd know better than me of course, I just interested for my own training.


It's not that I don't think hip thrusts, BSS, etc. have a place in training.  And it's not that it's completely unmeasurable, but it's just simply less measurable.  For example what's your max hip thrust and your max BSS?  After doing that max hip-thrust, dont you always feel like you could do one more?  I think one point that Steven-Miller does an EXCELLENT job hammering home is that all athletes (especially those who train alone or outside of a structured college-level program) should spend more time working on the most measurable strength increases.

I read over the link you posted and while I am a bit skeptical of some of the gains (slashing a second off multiple 200m college sprinters 200m times is the difference between an average an all-american athlete), the article actually supports my point that hip thrusts do not have the same place in part of a training program as squats.

Hip thrusts are primarily a glute-activation exercise.  As the article states, an athlete with poor glute activation can make incredible gains by adding hip thrusts to their program.  This gain doesn't necessarily come from adding X amount of pounds to the hip thrust but simply by adding them to the program and increasing weight to keep difficulty moderate.  By contrast squats are an overall strength exercise... Adding weight to your squat will pay dividends.  Also remember that I include backward overhead shot throws in my training program.  These are an EXCELLENT overall strength exercise requires glute and hip activation and provide a very measurable test of ability. 

Basically, my recommendation is that you structure your training by focusing primarily on the measurable quantity you are tested on (ie. your 100m sprint if you are a sprinter, long jump, or your vertical jump, etc.). 

After that your focus should be on your long term measurable tests of explosive strength (bounding, shot throws, power snatch/clean) and tests of maximal strength (squat variations, deadlift, push press, etc.).   You have to approach these lifts with the approach to get stronger and stronger as time passes.    Then your assistance movements and specific mobility work should come when needed, but the mindset required to approach these lifts cannot and should not be the same.  These might provide actually provide greater bang for your buck (ie 8 weeks of hip thrusts might help more than 8 weeks of squat in the short term, but in the long term the advantage will not be as great).  It's not that I think calf raises, hip thrusts, BSS, lunges, etc. are useless... It's just that they should occupy a different mindset as far as programming them into your training and performing them as part of training. 

Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2012, 10:42:24 am »
0
Yeah I completely agree. Plus the squats target many more muscles so... there ya have it.

However I did hip thrusts in the past and they were pretty good, I'm jumping higher now despite barely squatting 120x3 yesterday so... there has to be something (I also do kettlebell swings which are basically "power" hip thrusts)
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2012, 06:09:01 pm »
0
@T0ddday: I just realized that I always wrote your user-name wrong, lol, sorry for that.
Thank you for your detailed response. After reading about your thoughts I think we do not differ that much in many points. Because of lack of experience I cannot assess your idea with the single-leg jump. I agree with your argument, that most athletes will be least experienced and proficient in this jump technique. But I am not sure whether this could not be a dead end for many because less max strength can be utilized in the single-leg jump. However, I would be very interested to see how well this works. I hope LBSS will make it happen.

Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2012, 06:11:25 pm »
0
The question is - how can you increase the maximum controllable speed in the one-leg jump?
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

T0ddday

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2012, 09:42:45 pm »
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The question is - how can you increase the maximum controllable speed in the one-leg jump?

The old standby is speed reserve.  Basically, that the more speed you have... the faster you can run under control.  But, really their is more than one way to skin a cat.  All triple jumpers are elastic, but you within the population of triple jumpers you def see those whose strategy is to maintain speed and those whose strategy is to sacrifice speed for a more forceful upward impulse.  Here is a quick high-speed camera analysis... it's about long jumping rather than vertical, but it's a good lesson to realize that two of the greatest in the world do things in a very very different fashion:

http://www.arielnet.com/cloud/Publications/Show/adi-pub-01140/long-jump-technique-power-or-speed

AGC

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2012, 11:10:51 pm »
0

It's not that I don't think hip thrusts, BSS, etc. have a place in training.  And it's not that it's completely unmeasurable, but it's just simply less measurable.  For example what's your max hip thrust and your max BSS?  After doing that max hip-thrust, dont you always feel like you could do one more?  I think one point that Steven-Miller does an EXCELLENT job hammering home is that all athletes (especially those who train alone or outside of a structured college-level program) should spend more time working on the most measurable strength increases.

I read over the link you posted and while I am a bit skeptical of some of the gains (slashing a second off multiple 200m college sprinters 200m times is the difference between an average an all-american athlete), the article actually supports my point that hip thrusts do not have the same place in part of a training program as squats.

Hip thrusts are primarily a glute-activation exercise.  As the article states, an athlete with poor glute activation can make incredible gains by adding hip thrusts to their program.  This gain doesn't necessarily come from adding X amount of pounds to the hip thrust but simply by adding them to the program and increasing weight to keep difficulty moderate.  By contrast squats are an overall strength exercise... Adding weight to your squat will pay dividends.  Also remember that I include backward overhead shot throws in my training program.  These are an EXCELLENT overall strength exercise requires glute and hip activation and provide a very measurable test of ability. 

Basically, my recommendation is that you structure your training by focusing primarily on the measurable quantity you are tested on (ie. your 100m sprint if you are a sprinter, long jump, or your vertical jump, etc.). 

After that your focus should be on your long term measurable tests of explosive strength (bounding, shot throws, power snatch/clean) and tests of maximal strength (squat variations, deadlift, push press, etc.).   You have to approach these lifts with the approach to get stronger and stronger as time passes.    Then your assistance movements and specific mobility work should come when needed, but the mindset required to approach these lifts cannot and should not be the same.  These might provide actually provide greater bang for your buck (ie 8 weeks of hip thrusts might help more than 8 weeks of squat in the short term, but in the long term the advantage will not be as great).  It's not that I think calf raises, hip thrusts, BSS, lunges, etc. are useless... It's just that they should occupy a different mindset as far as programming them into your training and performing them as part of training. 


Sure, that all makes sense. I was more meaning that for LBSS specifically (after his initial strength rebuilding), he might benefit from doing them as they might give him some extra power he might have been missing. If he was starting from absolute zero, then of course he should focus on the more measurable compound lifts primarily. But given he wants to dunk ASAP and he has a decent vert already, then perhaps it wouldn't hurt him to not exclude them completely though (and yes, the overhead shot tosses will help in that regard). But yeah I agree on what you're saying.

Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2012, 04:30:23 am »
0
In my opinion the way you increase your maximum controllable speed is:

1) Try to jump faster every time
2) Doing high tension consecutive jumps (depth jumps, single leg bounds) so that you get accostumed to that level of overload that your jump leg will have to take in and control in the plant.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2012, 11:00:10 am »
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some three step SLRVJ below, so you can get a sense of just how bad my SLRVJ are. interestingly, i used to be infinitely better off my right leg, but now the difference is pretty small. credit that to practicing layups over the past few months. so yes, practice improves things. (T0ddday: i'm not a basketball player so i couldn't care less about dunking in a game.)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SnN3hb6KoM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SnN3hb6KoM</a>
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter