Author Topic: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..  (Read 21564 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2011, 09:42:14 am »
0
I don't get one thing: what is this thread really about? I mean, the half squat is a SPP strength exercise in athletics (track&field and other sports). It also can be used as GPP for people that get enough glute and general muscle stimulation with the half squat and that don't perform full squats well due to structural factors/flexibility factors/injuries/don't care about the full squat.

If the half squat does it's thing as a strength increase exercise then what's the beef?

Also, as a SPP exercise, it trains the reversal strength in the same exact point where a guy would want to reverse the eccentric into concentric. That will never happen with full squats. It's such an important factor in doing half squats instead of full squats.

Now you could come in and say "yeah but you could do full squats + depth jumps and get the best of both worlds."

Well yeah, you can, if you ignore the shocks in the joints that the depth jumps would generate. Those over time will take their toll. With half squats you can overload that eccentric, coupling and concentric phases without having to get these shocks.

So I think you don't have to be a genius to understand this and you don't need any more than these few phrases^^^ here to sum it up. There's no need for such a big discussion.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Kellyb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2011, 12:50:02 pm »
0
Quote
I wonder what's Kelly's point of view on the matter. After all, he's the one who kind of trains people for increasing the SVJ, since that will mean also an increase in the RVJ. For him personally, I think he went from ~20 inches to 35+ just by pretty much increasing his strength.

As for me, I think, just as for everybody else, the SVJ increases as the squat increases. Probably just as simple as that. But I'm a better SVJ jumper than the regular Joe, it kind of comes naturally to me.

I didn't read that thread so I'm not 100% sure what all the debate is about, but I can guess. I see the point of both sides. If people ask I'll tell them a 30% increase on a relatively untrained jump is typically attainable over time. That's 6 inches on a 20 inch jump and 9 inches on a 30.  There will be outliers who get more or less then that but I think most people can reasonably expect that with proper training over a period of time.  I also tell people my increases were way outside the norm and should not be expected.  I happened to get interested in jumping at a time when I was physically least suited for it and was extremely gangly and awkward and had really even yet to hit puberty but there was a lot of dormant potential there and as I matured that potential became magnified.  Having said that, a guy like Vag is proof of what a mature individual can accomplish on a SVJ when the focus is on that and the training is geared towards it. Also I think someone mentioned there's a big difference in results when using the VJ as an indicator and not the main focus of training.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 12:57:16 pm by Kellyb »

Nightfly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 923
  • Respect: +173
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2011, 08:33:00 pm »
0
I've started with a 20" something svj at 15 yo, only to reach 36" at 20yo. So almost doubled my svj while more than doubling my squat so...   :uhhhfacepalm:

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2011, 08:36:01 pm »
0
Quote from: Mark Rippetoe
Any athlete that has a legit TRAINED 36-38" SVJ started out with a 30-32+.

Let me ask you people this:

What does "started out" mean? It's not a  definable thing. What does starting out mean? That when I was 1 year old I could jump 32? That when I started to grow I could jump 32? That when I got past teenage I was jumping 32? That I can jump 32 without doing any training whatsoever? What about playing sports? Doesn't that affect my SVJ? What if I squat for bodybuilding purposes for 5 years already? What if I don't squat at all? What if I'm a powerlifter or Olympic lifter that doesn't train for a SVJ?

And so on and so forth. What does "started out" mean? This is stupid beyond anything I can think of.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

D-Rose Jr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
  • Respect: +34
    • View Profile
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2011, 10:06:27 pm »
0
either way that whole thread ended up just being the biggest troll of the century


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN6FWPb43ks" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN6FWPb43ks</a>

steven-miller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2011, 06:48:43 am »
0
The only stupid thing is people still not understanding the difference between VJ as diagnostic tool and training for it specifically (despite the fact that it was brought up several times now) and that Rippetoe's primary experience is with the former. And obviously you cannot come and claim to have doubled your SVJ when your pre test measure is as 15 year old and your post test measure is as adult 5 years later (because of drastic biological changes not attributed to training).

I think that Kelly brought a very good perspective into this debate, namely that of a coach with the experience to say what constitutes the typical improvement, within a time frame people are typically willing to commit to such a goal. Statements and predictions of what is maximally possible are always doomed to be proven wrong and most, like Rippetoe in this case, might drastically underestimate what is possible because of their much larger exposure to the typical. Yet people here might perceive that cases like vag and kingfish are completely normal, but obviously that is not the case either.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2011, 07:39:24 am »
0
Wait, wasn't you the one who said I could increase my squat liniarily for a long period of time just doing 3x5? Like I have your monster body and adaptability? I mean, you were the one who took the exception (yourself) and apply that to everybody, saying everybody can increase their squat each workout until they reach ~2x (you didn't say 2x, but a much higher squat than what I currently have). If it were that easy we would all have 2x squats.

I'm saying this because you say the same stuff of "exceptions" about SVJ, but don't think the same thing when it comes to squatting.

If you're able to increase your squat like that you're probably able to increase your SVJ a lot like that too.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2011, 09:25:56 am »
0
Wait, wasn't you the one who said I could increase my squat liniarily for a long period of time just doing 3x5? Like I have your monster body and adaptability? I mean, you were the one who took the exception (yourself) and apply that to everybody, saying everybody can increase their squat each workout until they reach ~2x (you didn't say 2x, but a much higher squat than what I currently have). If it were that easy we would all have 2x squats.

I'm saying this because you say the same stuff of "exceptions" about SVJ, but don't think the same thing when it comes to squatting.

If you're able to increase your squat like that you're probably able to increase your SVJ a lot like that too.

Yes, that was me and it is likely true. Having the physical capacity to do something and actually doing it (which means having motivational aspects in check as well, not getting injured, do what is necessary etc.) are different things however.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2011, 11:50:39 am »
0
If that were true I'd have a 2x squat since 3 years ago. If it was as simple as putting a bar on your back and doing your workout and your squat will increase liniarly.

By the way - just threw down a dunk at the 2.96 rim off standing VJ again - in the past (~2 years ago) I could barely touch the bottom of the rim off SVJ if anything, so that's a ~8 inch gain just by that.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 11:52:10 am by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2011, 02:15:37 pm »
-1
If that were true I'd have a 2x squat since 3 years ago. If it was as simple as putting a bar on your back and doing your workout and your squat will increase liniarly.

Well man, what can I say? I guess you are right then, I have been wrong all the time and you will never have a 2x bw squat ever, regardless of what you do.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2011, 03:17:22 pm »
0
If that were true I'd have a 2x squat since 3 years ago. If it was as simple as putting a bar on your back and doing your workout and your squat will increase liniarly.

Well man, what can I say? I guess you are right then, I have been wrong all the time and you will never have a 2x bw squat ever, regardless of what you do.

Duh, finally. Thank you.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

TheSituation

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1335
  • Just remember me when I make it shine
  • Respect: +215
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2011, 10:53:23 pm »
+1
I am not saying that he is right and that it never happens. I say people in these forums expect others with different backgrounds and different experiences to accept their views without questioning them despite the fact that most people are full of shit. Is Rip stubborn about these matters? Of course he is! Is there a certain truth to his side of the argument? Absolutely - IMO. Has he asked for data everytime this topic came up? Yes he did, you can go and check for yourselves. It is not that he sits in his ivory tower immune to every contradictory information. But so far there have not been many people come to him and say "Hey Rip, I trained dozens of people to jump higher from a standstill, here is the data." In fact, no one has. Btw., *I* would like to see such data as well and I say that as someone who has made pretty decent gains in his SVJ and has documented that shit very thouroughly. But I am not readily making conclusions based on myself and a handfull of other people on a special internet forum dedicated largely to that exact goal.


Didn't see this before, but how is there a certain truth to his argument? If one person proved him wrong, there is 0 truth to his argument. He's never trained anyone to jump high because that isn't their goal. Ok. He shouldn't be making the claims he did then.

And of course people will be butthurt here about that, because most people on here are training to jump higher. Being told they can't do it is heartbreaking, especially when they actually can do it but Rippetoe is ignorant.
I don't lift for girls, I lift for guys on the internet



[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily




Say NO to Maroko

And also NO to anyone who associates with him. No Taylor Allan. No Adam Scammenauger. No Kelly Baggett. No Elliot Hulse. No Jtrinsey. NO JUMP USA


Don't PM me asking me training questions. I'm here for the lulz. If you want help, post on the forums and get help from all the members, maybe even me.

steven-miller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2011, 11:00:40 am »
0
Didn't see this before, but how is there a certain truth to his argument? If one person proved him wrong, there is 0 truth to his argument. He's never trained anyone to jump high because that isn't their goal. Ok. He shouldn't be making the claims he did then.

When we are talking in absolute terms you are right, he would be proven wrong by anyone who increased their SVJ by more than X %, something he claimed to be impossible. But if people would see beyond that number and grasp the actual thought behind it, there would not be as much controversy about that topic. The thought being that in reality most people fail to increase their SVJs by more than a small margin. When Kelly, who hardly anyone here would not see as an expert in the matter, comes here and says that the typical improvement he tells his clients about is 30% in a reasonable time frame, what does that tell you? It tells ME that certain people who have an interest in increasing their jump and are motivated enough about it to do some research and actually contact Kelly Bagget to ask for advice or even pay for his services, are untypical to improve their SVJs by much more than 30%, despite the fact that they are a preselected group of athletes to begin with and are provided with solid training information as well.
Can we conclude from that, that X% is the maximum of possible improvement? Of course not and even one black swan is enough to prove that statement bullshit. But what can be said is that X% might be typical, what most of the time happens in a certain population with a specific training goal. In Rip's population >X% happens less often than maybe in Lance's population and that probably has a number of reasons, one of which you have mentioned yourself. But the general idea behind giving such a number to a trainee that is starting out is to give him a realistic expectation to work with and not tell him that he is likely to increase his SVJ by 50% because one person on adarq.org has done so.

The biggest issue with those statements of Rip were phrases like "impossible", "every", etc. I can understand that people have a problem with that, especially when it concerns themselves. The discussion would be more fruitful however if people would stop pointing the finger at Rip for making a claim that was doomed to be proven wrong by someone from the beginning and instead concentrate on what was, I believe, actually meant by it. Namely what is typical, what generally happens etc.

Now, questions like "In which populations is that the case?", "What are predictors for success above the average?", "What might be the effect of treating the SVJ as diagnostic tool vs. as athletic skill to be practiced?" etc. are actually meaningful topics that could have been debated if it wasn't for the stubbornness on both sides to prove the other side wrong.

I sincerely hope that there will be a meaningful debate about the half-squat and its value as SPP exercise, about possible and typical SVJ improvements etc. once we have made our case study.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 11:05:55 am by steven-miller »

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2011, 12:35:44 pm »
0
Hm, so let's see:

If I have a 9 inch vertical jump, I can expect to get to 12 (+30%) but that's pretty much it? And the more I can SVJ the more I gain, right?

If I have a standing 50 inch vertical jump, getting to 66 inch (+30%) would not be impossible, right?

So if I suck having a 9 inch vert I actually have a much lower ceiling of growth than if I were to jump 50 because 30% of a small number is less than 30% of a higher number.

See how idiotic this gets?

If you take a guy who has a 0.7 bodyweight squat and jumps 16 inches and get him to 2.5x, would you expect him to get 30% more on his SVJ OR would you expect him to possibly double that or more?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 12:38:40 pm by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Starting Strength - Incorporating Half Squats Link..
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2011, 03:23:48 pm »
0
Hm, so let's see:

If I have a 9 inch vertical jump, I can expect to get to 12 (+30%) but that's pretty much it? And the more I can SVJ the more I gain, right?

If I have a standing 50 inch vertical jump, getting to 66 inch (+30%) would not be impossible, right?

So if I suck having a 9 inch vert I actually have a much lower ceiling of growth than if I were to jump 50 because 30% of a small number is less than 30% of a higher number.

See how idiotic this gets?

If you take a guy who has a 0.7 bodyweight squat and jumps 16 inches and get him to 2.5x, would you expect him to get 30% more on his SVJ OR would you expect him to possibly double that or more?

Estimations like that are never accurate at the extremes. You would not measure the height of the Eiffel Tower or the size of a brain cell with a ruler either. It can measure distances, but it is not meant to do so at extremely long or short ones. The same reason applies here. Unless the population you derived your rule of thumb from had sufficiently many athletes with SVJs <10 and >49, your rule of thumb will not apply to those people.
Now, you MIGHT have a point here, but only if you can propose a better model than the percentage based one. Go ahead.