Author Topic: Squatting (Read 12678 times)

p.Esk. · « **on:** August 31, 2011, 08:37:21 pm »

I hear that squatting 2x your bodyweight is GREAT, but when they say that do that mean like 1 rep max, 5 rep max. What about how long it takes us do godown and up. WHat are some good goals because i am only about 10 pounds away from having my one rep max be double my bodyweight.

Devink · « **Reply #1 on:** August 31, 2011, 10:06:21 pm »

^ they are referring to your 1rm. KellyB said in one of his articles that a 1rm lift shouldn't take more than 4 seconds to complete, if i recall correctly.

p.Esk. · « **Reply #2 on:** August 31, 2011, 10:46:52 pm »

oh...i cant grind out that. I know that i will get it or not very quickly.

How much difference would it be if i could do it for five reps

steven-miller · « **Reply #3 on:** September 01, 2011, 06:52:53 am »

2 x bodyweight seems to be a good rule of thumb for many people. It's around the number where improving the jump gets harder because squat increases don't transfer as readily. And it's an easy enough goal that most male people can get there sort of quickly when their programming and motivation is okay.
That being said, more strength is always better in very general terms. But there is a point where more squat strength will not immediately and might actually never transfer to better jump height. This point varies from person to person, but I would assume it is higher than 2 x bodyweight for most. So going for 2 x for a set of 5 seems pretty reasonable.

p.Esk. · « **Reply #4 on:** September 01, 2011, 06:43:21 pm »

what about for sprinting>

steven-miller · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2011, 09:14:33 pm »

Quote from: p.Esk. on September 01, 2011, 06:43:21 pm

what about for sprinting>

I don't know about numbers here. But generally the same rules apply to any athletic task. Making max strength increases transfer to explosive events gets harder with continuing advancement. In your training you will therefore experience a shift in priorities for exercises. At the start the squat will make everything better but eventually you will have to incorporate more task specific training. What this consists of depends on your advancement as well training phase etc. Don't ask me about exercise selection for sprinters, I am not a very good runner and also don't have experience with it, so I can't give advice.

T0ddday · « **Reply #6 on:** September 02, 2011, 02:02:12 am »

Quote from: p.Esk. on September 01, 2011, 06:43:21 pm

what about for sprinting>

Depends on whether you mean speed or actual sprinting. In general increasing your squat will help you more in two-footed standing jumping than it will in running. Squatting will usually have some carryover to the acceleration phase of sprinting. For speed relevant to sport (soccer, football, etc) this is about all that matters. However, for actual sprinting the acceleration phase is a minor part of the race. Most high level sprint races separate when athletes get the chance to display max velocity. The problem with this is that if your increases in the squat are combined with increases in bodyweight your maximum velocity may suffer EVEN if your relative strength (as measured by squat to bw) increases. If you plan on competing as a sprinter... watch out for this.

steven-miller · « **Reply #7 on:** September 02, 2011, 09:08:54 am »

Quote from: T0ddday on September 02, 2011, 02:02:12 am

Quote from: p.Esk. on September 01, 2011, 06:43:21 pm
what about for sprinting>

Depends on whether you mean speed or actual sprinting. In general increasing your squat will help you more in two-footed standing jumping than it will in running. Squatting will usually have some carryover to the acceleration phase of sprinting. For speed relevant to sport (soccer, football, etc) this is about all that matters. However, for actual sprinting the acceleration phase is a minor part of the race. Most high level sprint races separate when athletes get the chance to display max velocity. The problem with this is that if your increases in the squat are combined with increases in bodyweight your maximum velocity may suffer EVEN if your relative strength (as measured by squat to bw) increases. If you plan on competing as a sprinter... watch out for this.

For a track sprinter, what would you prescribe to improve maximum velocity and how do you explain lower speed despite improved relative strength?

Dreyth · « **Reply #8 on:** September 02, 2011, 09:33:04 am »

^ I don't know much about sprinting, but the only thing I can think of is a change in mechanics leading to a less efficient (aka slower) way to sprint.

I'll creep back into the dark now and learn from afar...

p.Esk. · « **Reply #9 on:** September 02, 2011, 03:41:51 pm »

Quote from: steven-miller on September 02, 2011, 09:08:54 am

Quote from: T0ddday on September 02, 2011, 02:02:12 am
Quote from: p.Esk. on September 01, 2011, 06:43:21 pm
what about for sprinting>

Depends on whether you mean speed or actual sprinting. In general increasing your squat will help you more in two-footed standing jumping than it will in running. Squatting will usually have some carryover to the acceleration phase of sprinting. For speed relevant to sport (soccer, football, etc) this is about all that matters. However, for actual sprinting the acceleration phase is a minor part of the race. Most high level sprint races separate when athletes get the chance to display max velocity. The problem with this is that if your increases in the squat are combined with increases in bodyweight your maximum velocity may suffer EVEN if your relative strength (as measured by squat to bw) increases. If you plan on competing as a sprinter... watch out for this.

For a track sprinter, what would you prescribe to improve maximum velocity and how do you explain lower speed despite improved relative strength?

what would you advise a sprinter to do then. In my opinion since trac doesn't start until late January, i need to get my acceleration faster because i have good top speed but am bad at the acceleration. I am naturally lighter and faster then strong, so basic strength work would help me.
But what would you put as main exercises for strength training and for reactive training.

T0ddday · « **Reply #10 on:** September 02, 2011, 04:36:48 pm »

Quote from: steven-miller on September 02, 2011, 09:08:54 am

Quote from: T0ddday on September 02, 2011, 02:02:12 am
Quote from: p.Esk. on September 01, 2011, 06:43:21 pm
what about for sprinting>

Depends on whether you mean speed or actual sprinting. In general increasing your squat will help you more in two-footed standing jumping than it will in running. Squatting will usually have some carryover to the acceleration phase of sprinting. For speed relevant to sport (soccer, football, etc) this is about all that matters. However, for actual sprinting the acceleration phase is a minor part of the race. Most high level sprint races separate when athletes get the chance to display max velocity. The problem with this is that if your increases in the squat are combined with increases in bodyweight your maximum velocity may suffer EVEN if your relative strength (as measured by squat to bw) increases. If you plan on competing as a sprinter... watch out for this.

For a track sprinter, what would you prescribe to improve maximum velocity and how do you explain lower speed despite improved relative strength?

Maximum velocity is by far the hardest quality to train. It's equal part tendon stiffness and leg strength. For well trained athletes max V can be improved with overspeed work (pulling, slight downhill runs, etc), lot's of max V work (flying 20s, etc), single leg bounding work, or changes to mechanics.

It's lower speed despite improved relative strength as measured by the squat. You see this because the squat becomes a poor measure of strength at maximum velocity. Even high school sprinters have their fastest 10-meter splits well under a second. At this speed an athlete must exhibit extremely brief powerful single leg ground contact and the squat does not accurately predict their ability to produce power in this movement. So basically, if you weigh 150 pounds and squat 300 pounds and run an 11 flat 100m (assume fastest 10m split of 0.9) and you increase your back squat to 400 pounds and your bodyweight to 200 pounds it's very likely that your 10m split will now be slower.

Note that this is less true for poorly trained athletes. If an athlete is running 13.0 seconds in the 100m then their max V may likely simply because they fatigue before they can accelerate to max V. If this is the case then overdistance work for endurance and increase in relative strength as measured by squat will increase their acceleration, maximum velocity and speed endurance.

Notice that this is less true for an untrained athlete.

T0ddday · « **Reply #11 on:** September 02, 2011, 04:44:32 pm »

Quote from: p.Esk. on September 02, 2011, 03:41:51 pm

Quote from: steven-miller on September 02, 2011, 09:08:54 am
Quote from: T0ddday on September 02, 2011, 02:02:12 am
Quote from: p.Esk. on September 01, 2011, 06:43:21 pm
what about for sprinting>

Depends on whether you mean speed or actual sprinting. In general increasing your squat will help you more in two-footed standing jumping than it will in running. Squatting will usually have some carryover to the acceleration phase of sprinting. For speed relevant to sport (soccer, football, etc) this is about all that matters. However, for actual sprinting the acceleration phase is a minor part of the race. Most high level sprint races separate when athletes get the chance to display max velocity. The problem with this is that if your increases in the squat are combined with increases in bodyweight your maximum velocity may suffer EVEN if your relative strength (as measured by squat to bw) increases. If you plan on competing as a sprinter... watch out for this.

For a track sprinter, what would you prescribe to improve maximum velocity and how do you explain lower speed despite improved relative strength?

what would you advise a sprinter to do then. In my opinion since trac doesn't start until late January, i need to get my acceleration faster because i have good top speed but am bad at the acceleration. I am naturally lighter and faster then strong, so basic strength work would help me.
But what would you put as main exercises for strength training and for reactive training.

Depends. How do you know you have a good top speed and poor acceleration? What is your flying 30m speed? What is your 20m, 40m, 60m and 100m speed? What is your bodyweight and current squat max? Are you running indoor in janruary? Understand that it never hurts to squat more! Additionally, you never want to gain bodyweight! It's just that those who train for vertical jump can often make improvements if the gain a little weight if it comes with a large strength increase. But, no matter what you train for your goals should always be: increase your squat, decrease (or maintain) your bw. If your strength is really underdeveloped then be less strict about the bw goal.

Assuming you are not highly trained I would put the best exercise for strength training as the squat (all variations) and then the deadlift (a very distant second). For axillary lifts I would do weighted glute bridges or GHR or reverse hyper. For explosive lifts I would recommend the hang snatch. For reactive training you can do bounding, hurdle hops to sprints, standing triple jumps, etc. Additionally its a good idea to supplement your acceleration work with weighted pulling. Sled work will help your acceleration by allowing you to more easily transfer those gains your make in the weight room to the track.

p.Esk. · « **Reply #12 on:** September 02, 2011, 04:57:29 pm »

idk the times but at track last year, my starts were not so great, but i would end up catching up with everyone else. So i think for now i should only worry about getting my acceleration up. I max 275x1 full depth at 145 but i have a little bit of fat which i am takind care of.

Why cant i gain bw. I want to also get a good upper body physique for the ladies

I am going to work my way to squatting 295x5 from 200x5 i do now. That way i will have strong legs.
I clean instead of deadlift and i just cleaned 135x3 today and snatched 95x1 also.
WHat do you think about calf raises
NO ghr/reverse hyper...what about a back extension machine

steven-miller · « **Reply #13 on:** September 02, 2011, 08:36:37 pm »

Quote from: T0ddday on September 02, 2011, 04:36:48 pm

Quote from: steven-miller on September 02, 2011, 09:08:54 am
Quote from: T0ddday on September 02, 2011, 02:02:12 am
Quote from: p.Esk. on September 01, 2011, 06:43:21 pm
what about for sprinting>

Depends on whether you mean speed or actual sprinting. In general increasing your squat will help you more in two-footed standing jumping than it will in running. Squatting will usually have some carryover to the acceleration phase of sprinting. For speed relevant to sport (soccer, football, etc) this is about all that matters. However, for actual sprinting the acceleration phase is a minor part of the race. Most high level sprint races separate when athletes get the chance to display max velocity. The problem with this is that if your increases in the squat are combined with increases in bodyweight your maximum velocity may suffer EVEN if your relative strength (as measured by squat to bw) increases. If you plan on competing as a sprinter... watch out for this.

For a track sprinter, what would you prescribe to improve maximum velocity and how do you explain lower speed despite improved relative strength?

Maximum velocity is by far the hardest quality to train. It's equal part tendon stiffness and leg strength. For well trained athletes max V can be improved with overspeed work (pulling, slight downhill runs, etc), lot's of max V work (flying 20s, etc), single leg bounding work, or changes to mechanics.

It's lower speed despite improved relative strength as measured by the squat. You see this because the squat becomes a poor measure of strength at maximum velocity. Even high school sprinters have their fastest 10-meter splits well under a second. At this speed an athlete must exhibit extremely brief powerful single leg ground contact and the squat does not accurately predict their ability to produce power in this movement. So basically, if you weigh 150 pounds and squat 300 pounds and run an 11 flat 100m (assume fastest 10m split of 0.9) and you increase your back squat to 400 pounds and your bodyweight to 200 pounds it's very likely that your 10m split will now be slower.

Note that this is less true for poorly trained athletes. If an athlete is running 13.0 seconds in the 100m then their max V may likely simply because they fatigue before they can accelerate to max V. If this is the case then overdistance work for endurance and increase in relative strength as measured by squat will increase their acceleration, maximum velocity and speed endurance.

Notice that this is less true for an untrained athlete.

Thanks for taking the time to answer this. Still, I don't understand your explanation. If an athlete increases his squat / bw ratio through an increase in bw and much larger increase in the squat, which mechanism makes that he is now slower?

dirksilver · « **Reply #14 on:** September 03, 2011, 01:54:52 am »

Quote from: steven-miller on September 02, 2011, 08:36:37 pm

Quote from: T0ddday on September 02, 2011, 04:36:48 pm
Quote from: steven-miller on September 02, 2011, 09:08:54 am
Quote from: T0ddday on September 02, 2011, 02:02:12 am
Quote from: p.Esk. on September 01, 2011, 06:43:21 pm
what about for sprinting>

Depends on whether you mean speed or actual sprinting. In general increasing your squat will help you more in two-footed standing jumping than it will in running. Squatting will usually have some carryover to the acceleration phase of sprinting. For speed relevant to sport (soccer, football, etc) this is about all that matters. However, for actual sprinting the acceleration phase is a minor part of the race. Most high level sprint races separate when athletes get the chance to display max velocity. The problem with this is that if your increases in the squat are combined with increases in bodyweight your maximum velocity may suffer EVEN if your relative strength (as measured by squat to bw) increases. If you plan on competing as a sprinter... watch out for this.

For a track sprinter, what would you prescribe to improve maximum velocity and how do you explain lower speed despite improved relative strength?

Maximum velocity is by far the hardest quality to train. It's equal part tendon stiffness and leg strength. For well trained athletes max V can be improved with overspeed work (pulling, slight downhill runs, etc), lot's of max V work (flying 20s, etc), single leg bounding work, or changes to mechanics.

It's lower speed despite improved relative strength as measured by the squat. You see this because the squat becomes a poor measure of strength at maximum velocity. Even high school sprinters have their fastest 10-meter splits well under a second. At this speed an athlete must exhibit extremely brief powerful single leg ground contact and the squat does not accurately predict their ability to produce power in this movement. So basically, if you weigh 150 pounds and squat 300 pounds and run an 11 flat 100m (assume fastest 10m split of 0.9) and you increase your back squat to 400 pounds and your bodyweight to 200 pounds it's very likely that your 10m split will now be slower.

Note that this is less true for poorly trained athletes. If an athlete is running 13.0 seconds in the 100m then their max V may likely simply because they fatigue before they can accelerate to max V. If this is the case then overdistance work for endurance and increase in relative strength as measured by squat will increase their acceleration, maximum velocity and speed endurance.

Notice that this is less true for an untrained athlete.

Thanks for taking the time to answer this. Still, I don't understand your explanation. If an athlete increases his squat / bw ratio through an increase in bw and much larger increase in the squat, which mechanism makes that he is now slower?

i just don't get the ratio he used as in wasn't an increase in relative strength but rather absolute strength

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Author Topic: Squatting (Read 12678 times)

p.Esk.

Squatting

Devink

Re: Squatting

p.Esk.

Re: Squatting

steven-miller

Re: Squatting

p.Esk.

Re: Squatting

steven-miller

Re: Squatting

T0ddday

Re: Squatting

steven-miller

Re: Squatting

Dreyth

Re: Squatting

p.Esk.

Re: Squatting

T0ddday

Re: Squatting

T0ddday

Re: Squatting

p.Esk.

Re: Squatting

steven-miller

Re: Squatting

dirksilver

Re: Squatting