Author Topic: Squat vs Deadlift. (Read 23805 times)

adarqui · « **Reply #30 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:38:23 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on February 22, 2011, 05:24:22 pm

I've always wondered why are the glutes so important if they're not really activated unless you go very deep. I mean for jumping. If when you do a 1/4 squat you use mostly quads, and in a VJ you go into a 1/4 squat, shouldn't the recruitment be very similar (meaning - shouldn't the quads count very much and the glutes very little)?

it's not that the "glutes are not really activated unless you go deep", it's more of: "the quads become more inactive the deeper you go below 130 deg knee angle"..

so going deep is more of the quads not being able to do their job, which, at that depth, is of course not there job, it's the glutes job.. so the glutes become the primary muscle group for getting you "out of the hole" since the quads have very little ability to produce force at those angles..

the idea behind glutes, depth, half squatting and jumping, is that you teach the glutes (and even hams) to fire more at a depth ABOVE parallel, which is more specific to jumping.. by half squatting, you cause these adaptations to occur, which of course allows for more transfer to standing jumps and especially running jumps..

if you go "deep" all of the time while squatting, your body will learn to recruit the glutes maximally at depth, but you're not maximally stressing the quads AND you're not teaching the body to "fire everything" at half squat depth (jumping plant depth).. when you half squat, everything just turns on when you hit that depth, it becomes a reflex.. the heavier you go, the stronger you get, the more glute & ham you will recruit at above parallel depths, and of course your quads will be a shitload stronger.

that's my ideology (broscience) on half squatting.

peace

adarqui · « **Reply #31 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:40:17 pm »

Quote from: tychver on February 22, 2011, 05:36:16 pm

Quote from: Raptor on February 22, 2011, 05:24:22 pm
I've always wondered why are the glutes so important if they're not really activated unless you go very deep. I mean for jumping. If when you do a 1/4 squat you use mostly quads, and in a VJ you go into a 1/4 squat, shouldn't the recruitment be very similar (meaning - shouldn't the quads count very much and the glutes very little)?

The glutes are significantly active in jumping. EMG study on depth jumps:

http://w4.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/1137/1025

ya exactly, just as they are extremely significant in sprinting..

the confusion exists because people take a heavy-slow barbell movement and compare it to a ballistic movement.. the glutes are activated at ANY depth in a ballistic movement involving hip extension.

Raptor · « **Reply #32 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:44:22 pm »

Why would there be differences? I understand than in a running VJ there are forward vectors of movement that determine different loads on different muscles than in a simple, stationary squat, but other than that? Maybe the fact that in a squat you stop at the top and not fully extend and leave the ground as in a jump, hence the hip extension (or hyperextension) part doesn't occur.

And yeah, I know what you say Andrew. You're basically choosing the same point in squat to go up as a VJ would have (at least for you). So basically it's repeating the same ROM, with the coupling phase in the squat occuring at the same depth as it would occur in the VJ (functional training).

But then you say

Quote

"so going deep is more of the quads not being able to do their job, which, at that depth, is of course not there job, it's the glutes job"

If that's true, then maybe we need to focus more on the quads so that they ARE able to to their job, so you bend less in a jump, spend less time on the ground, and all the positive influence these things have on a VJ. If that's true, then you're always going to be limited by the quads, since you don't need the glutes as much if any when you barely bend to 1/4 when you jump.

adarqui · « **Reply #33 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:48:58 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on February 22, 2011, 05:44:22 pm

Why would there be differences? I understand than in a running VJ there are forward vectors of movement that determine different loads on different muscles than in a simple, stationary squat, but other than that? Maybe the fact that in a squat you stop at the top and not fully extend and leave the ground as in a jump, hence the hip extension (or hyperextension) part doesn't occur.

And yeah, I know what you say Andrew. You're basically choosing the same point in squat to go up as a VJ would have (at least for you). So basically it's repeating the same ROM, with the coupling phase in the squat occuring at the same depth as it would occur in the VJ (functional training).

But then you say
Quote
"so going deep is more of the quads not being able to do their job, which, at that depth, is of course not there job, it's the glutes job"

If that's true, then maybe we need to focus more on the quads so that they ARE able to to their job, so you bend less in a jump, spend less time on the ground, and all the positive influence these things have on a VJ. If that's true, then you're always going to be limited by the quads, since you don't need the glutes as much if any when you barely bend to 1/4 when you jump.

well alot of people call my "half squats" quarter squats.... so....

I do almost-quarters off pins, they kill my glutes/hams/quads, so ya, quarters are fine.. i've done them free-style also, again, same thing, everything gets murdered.. i believe in a variety of depths, so, i use anything from half to 'almost quarter' now.. i'd like to hit near 385 off pin 7 tonight for exampld, and 325 or so off pin 6.. those would be my ideal numbers for tonight if i don't dunk and feel good.. the bottom line is that we, as jumpers, need to get FREAKY strong above parallel, any depth above parallel needs to just be psychotic-strong, 3+xBW goals etc..

if you ONLY 1/4th squat, it'll be pretty damn heavy, that's why i'd use more half squatting.. at some point, back safety becomes an issue, so, as you progress, sure, you can keep increasing your quarters, but to only do quarters would be alot more wear and tear on the knees (patella tendons) and spinal column.

pc

Raptor · « **Reply #34 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:55:07 pm »

Yeah definitely. It's probably a good thing to limit your above parallel squats to later on, after you get a good strength base with full squats if you can do full squats safely though, since the more ROM and TUT, and less weight (for safety reasons) is a much better choice for beginners in my opinion. But once you have decent strength (1.5x+, maybe even 1.75x+) then you might get functional benefits from doing half squats or whatever depth you feel it's in the same ROM as your jumps, using the same stance as in a jump in terms of space between the feet etc.

If I wasn't weird enough already, I feel like I can full squat more easily 120 kg right now than I can half squat the same weight, because I reactively load and release better at that depth than at half squat depth. When I half squat 120 I feel my knees/quads overload, and the coupling phase is much slower than at full squat depth.

adarqui · « **Reply #35 on:** February 22, 2011, 05:59:44 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on February 22, 2011, 05:55:07 pm

Yeah definitely. It's probably a good thing to limit your above parallel squats to later on, after you get a good strength base with full squats if you can do full squats safely though, since the more ROM and TUT, and less weight (for safety reasons) is a much better choice for beginners in my opinion. But once you have decent strength (1.5x+, maybe even 1.75x+) then you might get functional benefits from doing half squats or whatever depth you feel it's in the same ROM as your jumps, using the same stance as in a jump in terms of space between the feet etc.

depends on the build, deep squatting is anything but safe for me personally.. so your comment becomes "stick with half squats until you're ~2xbw or so, then start incorporating quarters etc".. so ya same thing basically, but deep ruins my hips and bugs my back more.. i feel very uncomfortable going below parallel even in oly shoes.. i'm lanky, long legs, short torso, the extreme opposite of an oly lifter, so.. most of us here are like that, most people interested in jumping are like that, almost all basketball players are like that.

Quote

If I wasn't weird enough already, I feel like I can full squat more easily 120 kg right now than I can half squat the same weight, because I reactively load and release better at that depth than at half squat depth. When I half squat 120 I feel my knees/quads overload, and the coupling phase is much slower than at full squat depth.

i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.

pc

Raptor · « **Reply #36 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:04:31 pm »

Yeah that's why I said "if you can do full squats safely", because it pretty much depends on structure. By the way, do you feel like you improved on your "bounce (rebound)" at a half squat depth, or is a bounce in there at all?

Why do you think a rebounds is easier at full vs. at half? (meaning - to what do you attribute the existance of rebound anyway)?

BMully · « **Reply #37 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:06:40 pm »

adarq, I thought olympic lifts such as the power clean, power snatch, hang clean.... were supposed to get that strength and power transition that you get from half/quatter squatting.

You stated that you must first strengthen your gultes with parallel squats THEN move on to half squats...That sounds interesting to me, I will hopefully get 2.2xBW someday and maybe incorporate these half squats into the mix.

Another point i was curious about, do half squats only help jumping? In my mind I get the idea that only full squats will help sprinting(which I do to refresh your memory

)

I like the broscience!

Clarence · « **Reply #38 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:10:53 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on February 22, 2011, 06:04:31 pm

Yeah that's why I said "if you can do full squats safely", because it pretty much depends on structure. By the way, do you feel like you improved on your "bounce (rebound)" at a half squat depth, or is a bounce in there at all?

Why do you think a rebounds is easier at full vs. at half? (meaning - to what do you attribute the existance of rebound anyway)?

Rebound is definitely easier with full squat. Rebound has 3 parts (that I'm aware of)
1. muscle stretch reflex
2. hamstrings/calves contact (and possibly stomach on upper thighs)
3. bar momentum

Raptor · « **Reply #39 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:28:03 pm »

Quote from: Clarence on February 22, 2011, 06:10:53 pm

Quote from: Raptor on February 22, 2011, 06:04:31 pm
Yeah that's why I said "if you can do full squats safely", because it pretty much depends on structure. By the way, do you feel like you improved on your "bounce (rebound)" at a half squat depth, or is a bounce in there at all?

Why do you think a rebounds is easier at full vs. at half? (meaning - to what do you attribute the existance of rebound anyway)?

Rebound is definitely easier with full squat. Rebound has 3 parts (that I'm aware of)
1. muscle stretch reflex
2. hamstrings/calves contact (and possibly stomach on upper thighs)
3. bar momentum

So you basically say that since that the glute stretch at the bottom, and it's SSC effect (reactive effect) on the power induced for that particular squat is better than the quad stretch and it's SSC effect that you receive when you do say parallel squats or half squats?

adarqui · « **Reply #40 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:37:38 pm »

Quote from: Sean0013 on February 10, 2011, 06:37:42 pm

Why do people put so much emphasis on the squat. Isn't the p-chain just as important for jumping as quads? Also what do you guys think is the dl to squat ratio athletes should be aiming for (specifically aiming this at Lance and Adarqui!)?

sure the p-chain is important, but nothing is more important than the quads regarding VERTICAL displacement of the body.. quads/glutes/calfs in that order imo.

i'm speaking on experience coaching myself and others in person, so when it comes to vert, my personal belief is that squats destroy deadlifts.. deadlifting is well below squats in terms of dynamic correspondence/transfer.. deadlifts usually incorporate far more low back/hamstring activity than is needed.. deadlifts lack a strong eccentric stimulus unless you are going "too light", but then that eccentric stimulus becomes weak and is focused entirely on p-chain imo.

as for dl to squat ratio, there isn't one.. their are so many different builds, many of which makes you a greater deadlifter compared to squat, many of which also make you a horrible deadlifter compared to squat.. combine that with the fact that squat depth changes based on build also (in my line of teaching), and you have a clusterfu*k.. for example, basketball players usually have long arms, short torso, long legs, so, basketball players should actually be able to deadlift (semi sumo, sumo) far more than they can DEEP squat.

all i know is everyone needs a 3xBW half squat for speed, that's all i know...

adarqui · « **Reply #41 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:46:04 pm »

Quote from: BMully on February 22, 2011, 06:06:40 pm

adarq, I thought olympic lifts such as the power clean, power snatch, hang clean.... were supposed to get that strength and power transition that you get from half/quatter squatting.

they can.. sure.. but half/quarter squatting with speed would provide more of a maximal AND explosive strength stimulus.. oly lifts by themselves, for example, will decrease your 'explosive strength deficit', ie, give you more power based on your maximal strength levels.. you're only going to snatch/clean based on your front squat ceiling..

half squats (and possibly quarter squats), that focus on speed on each rep (no matter the rep range), will lead to more maximal AND explosive strength gains, hypertrophy (due to TUT), etc.

that's one of the many reasons I don't NEED to oly... my main reason for not oly'n however, is due to form/technique/lack of interest... so, due to the fact that i don't really incorporate any "traditional" explosive strength exercises (oly's), I have to make up for it with reactive work, sprints/jumps, and speed (even w/ heavy singles) during my squatting.

Quote

You stated that you must first strengthen your gultes with parallel squats THEN move on to half squats...That sounds interesting to me, I will hopefully get 2.2xBW someday and maybe incorporate these half squats into the mix.

you DEEP squat though.. big diff.. i might have typo'd with what you're saying, but i said, people should incorporate HALF squats before moving on to quarters.. not parallel before moving on to half..

Quote

Another point i was curious about, do half squats only help jumping? In my mind I get the idea that only full squats will help sprinting(which I do to refresh your memory )

based on our discussion, why the hell would "only full squats help sprinting" ??????????? im so confused by that....

bottom line, half and possibly quarter improves athletic performance (vert/speed) far greater than ATG.. the end..

when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.

Quote

I like the broscience!

pc

Clarence · « **Reply #42 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:46:38 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on February 22, 2011, 06:28:03 pm

Quote from: Clarence on February 22, 2011, 06:10:53 pm
Quote from: Raptor on February 22, 2011, 06:04:31 pm
Yeah that's why I said "if you can do full squats safely", because it pretty much depends on structure. By the way, do you feel like you improved on your "bounce (rebound)" at a half squat depth, or is a bounce in there at all?

Why do you think a rebounds is easier at full vs. at half? (meaning - to what do you attribute the existance of rebound anyway)?

Rebound is definitely easier with full squat. Rebound has 3 parts (that I'm aware of)
1. muscle stretch reflex
2. hamstrings/calves contact (and possibly stomach on upper thighs)
3. bar momentum

So you basically say that since that the glute stretch at the bottom, and it's SSC effect (reactive effect) on the power induced for that particular squat is better than the quad stretch and it's SSC effect that you receive when you do say parallel squats or half squats?

more muscle stretch with full squat
no physical bounce from tissues approximating with half squat
and easier to harness some bounce from the bar's recoil (not sure if recoil is the correct word, but you get my point)

BMully · « **Reply #43 on:** February 22, 2011, 06:52:02 pm »

Quote from: adarqui on February 22, 2011, 06:46:04 pm

Quote from: BMully on February 22, 2011, 06:06:40 pm
adarq, I thought olympic lifts such as the power clean, power snatch, hang clean.... were supposed to get that strength and power transition that you get from half/quatter squatting.

they can.. sure.. but half/quarter squatting with speed would provide more of a maximal AND explosive strength stimulus.. oly lifts by themselves, for example, will decrease your 'explosive strength deficit', ie, give you more power based on your maximal strength levels.. you're only going to snatch/clean based on your front squat ceiling..

half squats (and possibly quarter squats), that focus on speed on each rep (no matter the rep range), will lead to more maximal AND explosive strength gains, hypertrophy (due to TUT), etc.

that's one of the many reasons I don't NEED to oly... my main reason for not oly'n however, is due to form/technique/lack of interest... so, due to the fact that i don't really incorporate any "traditional" explosive strength exercises (oly's), I have to make up for it with reactive work, sprints/jumps, and speed (even w/ heavy singles) during my squatting.

Quote
You stated that you must first strengthen your gultes with parallel squats THEN move on to half squats...That sounds interesting to me, I will hopefully get 2.2xBW someday and maybe incorporate these half squats into the mix.

you DEEP squat though.. big diff.. i might have typo'd with what you're saying, but i said, people should incorporate HALF squats before moving on to quarters.. not parallel before moving on to half..

Quote
Another point i was curious about, do half squats only help jumping? In my mind I get the idea that only full squats will help sprinting(which I do to refresh your memory )

based on our discussion, why the hell would "only full squats help sprinting" ??????????? im so confused by that....

bottom line, half and possibly quarter improves athletic performance (vert/speed) far greater than ATG.. the end..

when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.

Quote
I like the broscience!

pc

then wtf am i going to do with all this atg squats!?!?!?!?!?

adarqui · « **Reply #44 on:** February 22, 2011, 07:28:22 pm »

you've personally insulted me and my half squatting on the live chat, many times, there's probably no hope for you, you're already "ATG brainwashed" by "adam linkenauger" who actually half/quarter squatted his "455".. lmao

but let's stay on topic..

the entire performance industry is brainwashed and brainwashes everyone with bullshit info every single day.

Adarq.org

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Author Topic: Squat vs Deadlift. (Read 23805 times)

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