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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: psychomark32 on July 28, 2011, 03:34:36 pm
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Hello all,
I have a couple tryouts coming up for indoor football teams.
I'm a pretty experienced trainee.
Weigh 178. Squat 385. Deadlift 385.
VJ: 37 40: Low:4.40. Hi: 4.61: Median: 4.5
I usually build up to a 1 rep max once a week on the squat or deadlift. I do a couple other supplemental lifts for the p-chain. The rest of my time is devoted to speed training.
What's a good strategy for trying to peak for tryouts?
Rest for a few days to be super recovered and fresh and run the risk of losing technique. Or...hit the field every day for light workouts without pushing it too hard (i.e running at max velocity, doing a lot of volume) etc.
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I'd go with very low volumes at high intensity every day. But it would probably burn you if you're not used to it. Whatever you do, don't jump too far away from what you'd normally do if you weren't peaking.
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I'd go with very low volumes at high intensity every day. But it would probably burn you if you're not used to it. Whatever you do, don't jump too far away from what you'd normally do if you weren't peaking.
x2 imo, no sense in doing something new, unless you want to see a miracle happen, but if it's for a tryout, I wouldn't bet on miracles.
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If you're fond on olympic lifts you're probably good suited to use these as potentiation stuff in low volumes. Also, for me personally, deadlifting in very low volumes/heavy weights has had a delayed potentiation effect (usually 2 days after the deadlift day I jumped very high).
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Anybody checked out the combine results for 2011?.
The results show guys who CAN jump, CAN'T run 40's. The top verters are nowhere in the 40 & vice-versa. Not one top 15 verter makes the top 15 of the 40, not one top 15 40dash makes the top 15 of the vert.
Original Link: http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#workout=FORTY_YARD_DASH&year=2011&position=QB-RB-WR-TE-S-DL-LB-CB-OL-SPEC
Original Link: http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#workout=VERTICAL_JUMP&year=2011&position=QB-RB-WR-TE-S-DL-LB-CB-OL-SPEC
^ Why is this?.
This should be a great talking point. This opened my eyes BIG style.
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Hello all,
I have a couple tryouts coming up for indoor football teams.
I'm a pretty experienced trainee.
Weigh 178. Squat 385. Deadlift 385.
VJ: 37 40: Low:4.40. Hi: 4.61: Median: 4.5
I usually build up to a 1 rep max once a week on the squat or deadlift. I do a couple other supplemental lifts for the p-chain. The rest of my time is devoted to speed training.
What's a good strategy for trying to peak for tryouts?
Rest for a few days to be super recovered and fresh and run the risk of losing technique. Or...hit the field every day for light workouts without pushing it too hard (i.e running at max velocity, doing a lot of volume) etc.
At the volume youre training with, dont do anything drastic. Schedule youre training so that the last weight training day is at least 3-4 days from the try out, and cut the volume and intensity of your combine drills leading up to the combine. What works well is cut 1/4 the volume on day 1 (week of combine ~7 days out), day 2-4 another 1/4, days 5-6 should be doing 1/4 the volume/intensity of what you normally do on the field, basically going through the movements at half speed.
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What works well is cut 1/4 the volume on day 1 (week of combine ~7 days out), day 2-4 another 1/4, days 5-6 should be doing 1/4 the volume/intensity of what you normally do on the field, basically going through the movements at half speed.
Lance, can this concept be used during a deload week when you're in the middle of a training cycle and trying to recover/ do testing before starting up again?
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What works well is cut 1/4 the volume on day 1 (week of combine ~7 days out), day 2-4 another 1/4, days 5-6 should be doing 1/4 the volume/intensity of what you normally do on the field, basically going through the movements at half speed.
Lance, can this concept be used during a deload week when you're in the middle of a training cycle and trying to recover/ do testing before starting up again?
absolutely. Concerning strictly the weights, it works best to drop nearly all assistance work, and focus on the primary lifts as above.
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Anybody checked out the combine results for 2011?.
The results show guys who CAN jump, CAN'T run 40's. The top verters are nowhere in the 40 & vice-versa. Not one top 15 verter makes the top 15 of the 40, not one top 15 40dash makes the top 15 of the vert.
Original Link: http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#workout=FORTY_YARD_DASH&year=2011&position=QB-RB-WR-TE-S-DL-LB-CB-OL-SPEC
Original Link: http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#workout=VERTICAL_JUMP&year=2011&position=QB-RB-WR-TE-S-DL-LB-CB-OL-SPEC
^ Why is this?.
This should be a great talking point. This opened my eyes BIG style.
i
i bet you its because guys with great verts are quad dominant and guys with great forty's are more posterior dominant and have great reactive strength. To have a great 40 you have to have nasty top end speed. Guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration but tend to pitter out at the end of the racee becsause there thighs are too big and they have to "push" through the race instead of propel effortlessly.
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You think that 40 yards are enough for that difference to become obvious?
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No ^^ not blatantly, but a weak posterior chain will still negatively affect short sprints just like will a jump.
Whats happening with the 40yd dash times is guys are getting coached to run the race. The start itself can make the difference in tenths of a second, add in learning to use the valsalva maneuver and correct early acceleration mechanics and you can have a less gifted athlete smoke a more highly gifted one in that event. The vertical jump is not coached as in depth by MOST coaches, and even then, improvements arent going to be as drastic as they will with the 40.
Anyone interested in a better 40yd dash time should read Joe Defrancos book "The 40YD Dash" , its one of the best resources you will ever find for this event.
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No ^^ not blatantly, but a weak posterior chain will still negatively affect short sprints just like will a jump.
Whats happening with the 40yd dash times is guys are getting coached to run the race. The start itself can make the difference in tenths of a second, add in learning to use the valsalva maneuver and correct early acceleration mechanics and you can have a less gifted athlete smoke a more highly gifted one in that event. The vertical jump is not coached as in depth by MOST coaches, and even then, improvements arent going to be as drastic as they will with the 40.
Anyone interested in a better 40yd dash time should read Joe Defrancos book "The 40YD Dash" , its one of the best resources you will ever find for this event.
Yeah but still,
The top verters are nowhere in the 40 & vice-versa. Not one top 15 verter makes the top 15 of the 40, not one top 15 40dash makes the top 15 of the vert.
It doesn't make any sense for this to happen.
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Thanks Lance, that's very useful stuff...
There is evidence to support both sides of the argument so I doubt you can say that having a good vertical results in slower speeds. I believe that running is a complex skill in itself and maybe some of those guys with great power output haven't mastered it like others.
Evidence supporting low vertical (relatively) but crazy speed:
Jacoby Ford: 33.5 vertical, 9'7 broad jump, 4.28 40yard dash, 10.21 100m
DeSean Jackson : 34.5 vertical, 10'2 broad jump, 4.35 40yd
Evidence of great verts and speed
Trindon Holliday: 42 vert, 9'8" bj, 4.34 40yd, 10.00 100m !!
Calvin Johnson: 44.5 vert, 11'10 bj, 4.33 40yd <---- Crazyyyyy ass shitt
Also I know Bryan Clay has been tested at 43' and Harry AA at 40'
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I bet you its because guys with great verts are quad dominant and guys with great forty's are more posterior dominant and have great reactive strength. To have a great 40 you have to have nasty top end speed. Guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration but tend to pitter out at the end of the race because there thighs are too big and they have to "push" through the race instead of propel effortlessly.
You have contradicted yourself some what.
"guys with great verts are quad dominant".
"guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration".
Your saying; guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration.
Well doesn't that mean the verters should have a great 40yd dash?.
It doesn't make any sense for this to happen.
But it has.
Whats happening with the 40yd dash times is guys are getting coached to run the race.
I would have thought every athlete at the combine would put equal emphasis in training on the vert & 40yd dash? & all camps would have coaches with the necessary experience to coach both events.
If it came down to greater coaching, certain States/Universities would dominate the vert/40dash tables?.
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I bet you its because guys with great verts are quad dominant and guys with great forty's are more posterior dominant and have great reactive strength. To have a great 40 you have to have nasty top end speed. Guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration but tend to pitter out at the end of the race because there thighs are too big and they have to "push" through the race instead of propel effortlessly.
You have contradicted yourself some what.
"guys with great verts are quad dominant".
"guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration".
Your saying; guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration.
Well doesn't that mean the verters should have a great 40yd dash?.
Great 10yd dash yes. Not necessarily 40yd.
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I bet you its because guys with great verts are quad dominant and guys with great forty's are more posterior dominant and have great reactive strength. To have a great 40 you have to have nasty top end speed. Guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration but tend to pitter out at the end of the race because there thighs are too big and they have to "push" through the race instead of propel effortlessly.
You have contradicted yourself some what.
"guys with great verts are quad dominant".
"guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration".
Your saying; guys who are quad dominant have great acceleration.
Well doesn't that mean the verters should have a great 40yd dash?.
It doesn't make any sense for this to happen.
But it has.
Whats happening with the 40yd dash times is guys are getting coached to run the race.
I would have thought every athlete at the combine would put equal emphasis in training on the vert & 40yd dash? & all camps would have coaches with the necessary experience to coach both events.
If it came down to greater coaching, certain States/Universities would dominate the vert/40dash tables?.
You thought wrong. The 40yd dash is pushed so heavily and sprint coaches have nit picked every detail from the big toe to the top of the head. The vertical jump is coached primarily as "jump". There are of course exceptions but most combine training facilities are "practicing" the vertical jump, while teaching in detail sprint technique/starts/every step in the race.
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You thought wrong. The 40yd dash is pushed so heavily and sprint coaches have nit picked every detail from the big toe to the top of the head. The vertical jump is coached primarily as "jump". There are of course exceptions but most combine training facilities are "practising" the vertical jump, while teaching in detail sprint technique/starts/every step in the race.
I think there is more to it than just technique & attention to detail.
It could be range of factor(s), such as mass, height, training methods, exercise preference, maybe the verters are quad dominant, maybe too much squatting (vertical) or too much emphasis placed on oly’s (vertical) etc, that is impeding them to produce a good 40 time. It could be so many things.
Maybe the positions they play in might tell us something.
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You thought wrong. The 40yd dash is pushed so heavily and sprint coaches have nit picked every detail from the big toe to the top of the head. The vertical jump is coached primarily as "jump". There are of course exceptions but most combine training facilities are "practising" the vertical jump, while teaching in detail sprint technique/starts/every step in the race.
I think there is more to it than just technique & attention to detail.
It could be range of factor(s), such as mass, height, training methods, exercise preference, maybe the verters are quad dominant, maybe too much squatting (vertical) or too much emphasis placed on oly’s (vertical) etc, that is impeding them to produce a good 40 time. It could be so many things.
Maybe the positions they play in might tell us something.
I agree. A lot of linebackers and elite defensive ends have the same vertical jumps as defensive backs. It's there massive lower body strength that gives them so much power to jump high. But, in the 40, they can't keep up with the little guys because it's hard to have fast top end speed when you weigh 250 lbs. Extra body weight takes away from your reactivity, which will effect how "springy" you are once you've reached top speed. The more springy you are the more ground you are covering with each step you take.
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You thought wrong. The 40yd dash is pushed so heavily and sprint coaches have nit picked every detail from the big toe to the top of the head. The vertical jump is coached primarily as "jump". There are of course exceptions but most combine training facilities are "practicing" the vertical jump, while teaching in detail sprint technique/starts/every step in the race.
this is why i will never be fast, shitty big toes. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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You thought wrong. The 40yd dash is pushed so heavily and sprint coaches have nit picked every detail from the big toe to the top of the head. The vertical jump is coached primarily as "jump". There are of course exceptions but most combine training facilities are "practicing" the vertical jump, while teaching in detail sprint technique/starts/every step in the race.
this is why i will never be fast, shitty big toes. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Just work on your spinal mobility blu, you can cut off both big toes and still run like a cheetah.
btw, in studies involving deficiencies in the big toe, there is often a high occurrence of multiple std's. Strange fact but interesting never the less.
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You thought wrong. The 40yd dash is pushed so heavily and sprint coaches have nit picked every detail from the big toe to the top of the head. The vertical jump is coached primarily as "jump". There are of course exceptions but most combine training facilities are "practicing" the vertical jump, while teaching in detail sprint technique/starts/every step in the race.
this is why i will never be fast, shitty big toes. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Just work on your spinal mobility blu, you can cut off both big toes and still run like a cheetah.
btw, in studies involving deficiencies in the big toe, there is often a high occurrence of multiple std's. Strange fact but interesting never the less.
It is? Damn I knew it. And damn my long big toes!
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I agree. A lot of linebackers and elite defensive ends have the same vertical jumps as defensive backs. It's there massive lower body strength that gives them so much power to jump high. But, in the 40, they can't keep up with the little guys because it's hard to have fast top end speed when you weigh 250 lbs. Extra body weight takes away from your reactivity, which will effect how "springy" you are once you've reached top speed. The more springy you are the more ground you are covering with each step you take.
Good reply.
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I agree. A lot of linebackers and elite defensive ends have the same vertical jumps as defensive backs. It's there massive lower body strength that gives them so much power to jump high. But, in the 40, they can't keep up with the little guys because it's hard to have fast top end speed when you weigh 250 lbs. Extra body weight takes away from your reactivity, which will effect how "springy" you are once you've reached top speed. The more springy you are the more ground you are covering with each step you take.
Good reply.
They also probably have a very strong strength background and they're used to muscle up everything which works well in terms of acceleration but when you get to the relaxation/reactive sprinting they will suck hard there trying to force their sprint up again and again instead of working to maintain a high speed.
Not sure if 40 yards is a long enough distance for that to happen though.
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I am with lance on this. The technique of every test is coached in such detail that you can shave .2 - .3 off a 40 in less than an hour. You cannot finnesse your way into a good vertical jump. You just need raw power. You dont creep the line, big step, stare at this point, keep your lean, dont pop up but step out, etc... to a good jump. I have seen hip dominant jumpers jump 36+ and quad dominant jump 36+. it is more about horsepower than anything.