Ok ok, so some things to clarify: what is the role of the pchain in the RVJ for most jumpers then? (of course some people use more quads or more pchain.. i need an indepth biomechanics lesson on this) This is something I've been trying to understand, but i've been sprinting lately so i have not looked into it. It just seems as if many jumpers REACH OUT before the plant so much before the amortization phase, lengthening the hamstrings glutes, and quads of course, that it seems important to enhance the absorptive capacities of these muscles. Weak absorptive capacities might limit the runup velocity, and also the potential of the quads.
And Raptor, the 20m sprint to rope jump is exactly what I'm talking about. Just hope you don't trip over the rope haha.
the role of the p-chain (glutes/hams/calfs) is the same as the quads in an RVJ, to absorb force and then produce force, it's just that the quads handle the brunt of it.. the more you 'break your momentum', the higher the percentage of force the quads will absorb.. check most every insane leaper's plant as they are about to transition from force absorption to force "production", knees are far in front of the toes with heels elevated, there's no other way around the quads being of primary importance in RVJ.
Luke Lowrey (which everybody hates, bought his program though when I first got into this), recommended single leg hyperextensions for the 2 legged vert, he stressed that the hstrings absorb a lot of force.
go do 30-40 max effort RVJ, what is usually achy, hamstrings? not in most people, not in most good jumper's.. it's usually quads/calfs.. are hamstrings just that strong? no, they just don't contribute to the level people think they do.. go run 10+ max effort 40's, what's achy/sore? illiopsoas, hamstrings, and glutes......
"the overload of a DJ simply strengthens the athlete to enable them to transition faster from eccentric to concentric, as well as produce more force during the initial plant (drop) and transition.. those adaptations transfer well to RVJ, they don't need to be completely specific. The thing with DJ's, is that you can load them up with forces exceeding that which you can create voluntarily, ie by raising box height, ie 30" through 42" box heights. 30" for "reactive strength peak", 42" for maximal strength peak."
Ok clarifying again, I will say that the shock runups (good name) I suggested aren't actually specific anymore, let's not even talk about that, Regular DJs and this exercise both provide a supraphysiological environment that strengthens certain components of an RVJ. What I'm saying is that, the shock runups will improve the transition MORE, than regular DJs, simply due to the muscles involved, and the nature of an RVJ, with the runup and all.
I can agree with that, the problem is, the nature of a depth jump is less chaotic, which can be perceived as good or bad depending, but the more chaotic nature of overspeed RVJ's would undoubtedly increase the RISK of injury.. every depth jump is pretty much the same, shock-runups would have alot of variety, and on the occasion where everything just goes haywire (a bad plant/jump), the risk of injury is higher imo.
But definitely, there would be more transfer from shock-runups to RVJ *if* shock-runups prove beneficial.
But now you're saying that the quads would be involved a lot more. Say instead of jumping vertically from a 7 stride runup, we jumped horizontally, I definitely see how my pchain would be more involved. So that does make some sense... It's been a while since I've done this so I'll have to try it again. What I noticed was a very short ground contact time, which is the goal of this exercise.
right, quad contribution decreases (p-chain contribution increases) the more horizontal you go.. but in that t-dub vid, you can see him pretty much break all of his momentum, he does float horizontally, but that is a VERY vertical jump given the speed he ran up with, he didn't get much horizontal displacement.
What I envision, is the athlete jumping up like a pogo stick, after it is thrown like a dart into the ground in front, more like a 1 legged VJ, jumping form the HEELS if possible (which hurts for sure) Therefore pcain would be used for braking forces?
i see what you're saying there, but i can't picture it actually happening.. you can see that somewhat in 'bilateral-linear-planters' who are strength dominant, p-chain dominant squatters (PL style etc).. they run up, squared to the basket, hop into a completely squared plant, heel striking, land and jump.. that would be more p-chain dominant, the thing is, you NEVER will see a fast run up out of those guys.. i mean it's basically doesn't exist.. one guy from TVS had it somewhat, i forget his username, he had some nasty hops, his jumps looked so freaky cause of his run up being fast yet plant being bilateral-linear.
WHen I did this exercise with a minitrampoline, this was the case, I did not use much quad, or I do not think, also I jumped with my heels more, thr trampoline makes it easier of course. My biomechanical analysis of this is very incomplete. The braking forces of the quads may be the correct explanation, just counterintuitive. However, I am trying this out right now, and I just saw something else to clarify. Jumping with the HEELS, really targets the pchain, but jumping regularly hits the quads more.....????? so confused.
jumping with heels relied more on hip extension, jumping regular (with knees ahead of toes) relies more on knee extension then hip extension + plantar flexion.
About the voluntary thing: I don't see how that matters, a machine could throw you forward like a batting cage throws a baseball, that's involuntary, but it produces the same result, horizontal velocity, that needs to be converted to vertical. So yeha, this exercise could be done if a machine threw your body forward, or if gravity were sideways, lol.
it matters because, when you voluntarily try to do something dangerous, your body inhibits you.. like if you tried to chop off your finger, it would take alot of effort.. with a depth jump, your body really doesn't perceive that danger unless the box is way too high, a 30" box submits you to forces from complete relaxation, unlike in a runup, and those forces can exceed what you can voluntarily produce by progressing the box height. the difference between that and a shock-runup, would be that, if you are TRYING to achieve a higher speed in the runup, than you can handle in the plant, your body is basically trying to shut you down in the runup or as soon as you plant, to override that is more of a voluntary approach, unlike in a depth jump, where simply landing from the box causes you to experience supramaximal forces, and protective mechanisms kick in, in order to handle those forces (if the box is way too high you just collapse into mush, inhibition).
About Adarq's last point, I forgot to mention this actually. Instead of actually jumping, you can just "land" from the sprint, or 7 stride run up. In essence that's a depth drop, on a different plane. THis entire exercise IS depth jump/drop, but on a different plane, at least that's how I think of it.
ya that's what i was talking about in one of my previous responses, that sounds ALOT safer & ALOT more effective.. if you improve your ability run plant with more speed, when you go to do max effort jump sessions, you should just normally run up with more speed because of those adaptations.. i think that the shock-runup exercise would be best performed without the jump.
Definitely agree about the injuries, it's hard, and it's intense. But no more intense than Russians jumping off buildings for depth drops, or parkour landings, those produce results, but injuries are more likely. I'm going to the gym right now to try this. I will also do this more in a week like I said. Haven't been jumping in a while due to knee issues and focus on sprinting
alot of the russian drops from buildings shit is blown out of proportion, verkhoshansky provided s&c science for the eastern bloc and, he concluded that 30"-42" for depth jumps is the limit, he's not even a fan of drops really.. so 30-42" is pretty low when you think of the stories people talk about.
^again about the risks, let's start slow, this would mean a 3 step RVJ, with a little extra umph for velocity. Move up to 5 (3 lefts, or 3 rights), vary the speed. I'm not talking about sprinting into it all the time, but rather just a little extra velocity that you can safely handle Same exact principles apply for a depth jump, you start slow off of 12 inch boxes, and move up, this is no different. SPrinting into it though is something worth trying for some extreme training, kind of like parkour ppl jumping off buildings. But very risky indeed.
UPDATE: just came back from the gym and decided to post findings
ADARQ: youare a GENIUS! Totally hit quads and achilles tendon, I should have known this b/c I have felt this before.. to target pchain you'd have to land BACKWARDS. THe only way to target pchain a bit more is with a 30 degree/45 degree plant (basically regular sideways RVJ) My problem was keeping my heels low as I've been sprinting a lot. With the heels kept low you do target the pchain a bit more, but still heavily quads/achilles/soleus.
thanks i know i'm a genius lololol ;p
that's why i do backward depth drops, they actually hit the calfs and glutes alot harder than forward depth drops.
Jumping with the heels with this is almost impossible, you would need a trampoline, in which case, this exercise changes a lot, potentiation effects are a lot different
So there are 4 variations that anyone with an open mind who is willing to do something new can try.
1. 3/5 step RVJ with extra speed - jump. The most basic variation
a. as you get faster, the heels start to rise. So you can either keep the heels higher up, or
b. try to keep them low after gaining much momentum
2. 3/5 step RVJ with extra speed - jumping with slightly sideways plant as in a regular vertical jump (if you do have a dominant plant leg)
3. 5+ steps - much more difficult, heels will be much higher and is definitely riskier
4a. 3/5 step runup with supraphysiological velocity (more than in your regular comfortable RVJ) - land. No jump, just land, center of gravity should be low... but everyone is different so I do not know.
5. Wear a weighted vest - kill your patella I'm going to try this though....
So, since the quadriceps/lowerleg experiences some pretty drastic breaking forces or whatever you would like to term it with this exercise, it's a good addition to your regime. Just be careful
nice, I like #4 and then just let those adaptations manifest themselves naturally in max effort jumping.. kind of like how when I do high volume reactive work, my plants change naturally with no conscious effort.. i imagine the same thing would happen here.
peace man
