Author Topic: low bar squat vs high bar squat (Read 37665 times)

Kingfish · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2010, 09:13:03 am »

Quote from: bball2020 on November 17, 2010, 07:17:22 am

kingfish, youre knees have never hurt at all? I know mine havent really much at all

its usually the mid quads or the quads on the upper part of knees that gets DOMS. glutes also when i do more paused reps.

Quote from: steven-miller on November 17, 2010, 09:01:10 am

Removed due to an unlogical thought .

^ steven miller probably wrote... ok.. time for some olys.

LBSS · « **Reply #16 on:** November 17, 2010, 09:36:09 am »

Those are some nice looking squats, kingfish.

bball2020 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 17, 2010, 12:53:01 pm »

more thoughts on olympic squats for power squats for VJ..

Power squats do allow you to lift more weight,ala why the stance and bar grip is used or preferred by powerlifting. It puts you in the best position to squat a ton of weight. Doesnt mean it puts you in the best position that corresponds to your particular goal(jumping). Also some argue less stress in certain areas(knees), allowing more long term safety.

olympic squats were in essence used by olympic lifters as a (main)assistance exercise since it isnt an actual olympic lift. The reason this makes sense is the angles of the clean(and jerk) and the correspodance to the high bar squat. Using this logic, IMO the high bar squat would offer more dynamic correspodance to the VJ. But as i stated earlier, it is not a directly corresponding exercise to the VJ, as you can easily be able to jump high or train yourself to jump high without it. Still if your sole goal is one rep VJ, or to a less degree RVJ, there is to strong correlation. Strength is general to sport, and jumping, but exercise selection still need to be based on ur specific goals.

LBSS · « **Reply #18 on:** November 17, 2010, 04:55:30 pm »

Quote from: bball2020 on November 17, 2010, 12:53:01 pm

more thoughts on olympic squats for power squats for VJ..

Power squats do allow you to lift more weight,ala why the stance and bar grip is used or preferred by powerlifting. It puts you in the best position to squat a ton of weight. Doesnt mean it puts you in the best position that corresponds to your particular goal(jumping). Also some argue less stress in certain areas(knees), allowing more long term safety.

olympic squats were in essence used by olympic lifters as a (main)assistance exercise since it isnt an actual olympic lift. The reason this makes sense is the angles of the clean(and jerk) and the correspodance to the high bar squat. Using this logic, IMO the high bar squat would offer more dynamic correspodance to the VJ. But as i stated earlier, it is not a directly corresponding exercise to the VJ, as you can easily be able to jump high or train yourself to jump high without it. Still if your sole goal is one rep VJ, or to a less degree RVJ, there is to strong correlation. Strength is general to sport, and jumping, but exercise selection still need to be based on ur specific goals.

Look, the only thing that puts you in the best position that corresponds to jumping is jumping. Squats are to develop general strength in the legs. Your legs don't give a flying fuck where the bar is sitting on your back. Your own biomechanics and the bar position will place emphasis on different muscles, but if you're worried about it, do other exercises to target the ones you don't feel are getting enough tension when you squat.* Unless you are a power lifter or an olympic lifter, it does not fucking matter one tiny little bit where the bar is in terms of transfer to whatever sport or other activity you do.

*NB: This is a hypothetical you, not talking about you, bball2020, specifically.

adarqui · « **Reply #19 on:** November 17, 2010, 06:17:42 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on November 17, 2010, 04:55:30 pm

Quote from: bball2020 on November 17, 2010, 12:53:01 pm
more thoughts on olympic squats for power squats for VJ..

Power squats do allow you to lift more weight,ala why the stance and bar grip is used or preferred by powerlifting. It puts you in the best position to squat a ton of weight. Doesnt mean it puts you in the best position that corresponds to your particular goal(jumping). Also some argue less stress in certain areas(knees), allowing more long term safety.

olympic squats were in essence used by olympic lifters as a (main)assistance exercise since it isnt an actual olympic lift. The reason this makes sense is the angles of the clean(and jerk) and the correspodance to the high bar squat. Using this logic, IMO the high bar squat would offer more dynamic correspodance to the VJ. But as i stated earlier, it is not a directly corresponding exercise to the VJ, as you can easily be able to jump high or train yourself to jump high without it. Still if your sole goal is one rep VJ, or to a less degree RVJ, there is to strong correlation. Strength is general to sport, and jumping, but exercise selection still need to be based on ur specific goals.

Look, the only thing that puts you in the best position that corresponds to jumping is jumping. Squats are to develop general strength in the legs. Your legs don't give a flying fuck where the bar is sitting on your back. Your own biomechanics and the bar position will place emphasis on different muscles, but if you're worried about it, do other exercises to target the ones you don't feel are getting enough tension when you squat.* Unless you are a power lifter or an olympic lifter, it does not fucking matter one tiny little bit where the bar is in terms of transfer to whatever sport or other activity you do.

*NB: This is a hypothetical you, not talking about you, bball2020, specifically.

FUCK.

LBSS · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2010, 07:18:33 pm »

Quote from: adarqui on November 17, 2010, 06:17:42 pm

Quote from: LBSS on November 17, 2010, 04:55:30 pm
Quote from: bball2020 on November 17, 2010, 12:53:01 pm
more thoughts on olympic squats for power squats for VJ..

Power squats do allow you to lift more weight,ala why the stance and bar grip is used or preferred by powerlifting. It puts you in the best position to squat a ton of weight. Doesnt mean it puts you in the best position that corresponds to your particular goal(jumping). Also some argue less stress in certain areas(knees), allowing more long term safety.

olympic squats were in essence used by olympic lifters as a (main)assistance exercise since it isnt an actual olympic lift. The reason this makes sense is the angles of the clean(and jerk) and the correspodance to the high bar squat. Using this logic, IMO the high bar squat would offer more dynamic correspodance to the VJ. But as i stated earlier, it is not a directly corresponding exercise to the VJ, as you can easily be able to jump high or train yourself to jump high without it. Still if your sole goal is one rep VJ, or to a less degree RVJ, there is to strong correlation. Strength is general to sport, and jumping, but exercise selection still need to be based on ur specific goals.

Look, the only thing that puts you in the best position that corresponds to jumping is jumping. Squats are to develop general strength in the legs. Your legs don't give a flying fuck where the bar is sitting on your back. Your own biomechanics and the bar position will place emphasis on different muscles, but if you're worried about it, do other exercises to target the ones you don't feel are getting enough tension when you squat.* Unless you are a power lifter or an olympic lifter, it does not fucking matter one tiny little bit where the bar is in terms of transfer to whatever sport or other activity you do.

*NB: This is a hypothetical you, not talking about you, bball2020, specifically.

FUCK.

if you ain't fuckin', you ain't tryin'

bball2020 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2010, 07:26:07 pm »

by bar position, I referred to how you squat.

IE
High bar- olympic squat, knees travel foreward and it mirrors the jumping

Low bar- more sit back involved with very minimal knee travel

I agree, strength is a general stimulus, especially when its for sport. And your right its to strengthen the musclurature not actually be the means to how your VJ goes up, or this forum would all be about powerlifting and squatting 500. But if it is just 1 rep VJ, squatting is almost a special exercise in this regard IMO and is definitely a huge bang for your buck so you want to maximize its potential in this regard.

My main point of that little rant i guess was to say that anyone who thinks that for VJ, low bar deep squat is the golden egg so to speak, they are mistaken as theoretically olympic high bar would have a greater transfer

LBSS · « **Reply #22 on:** November 17, 2010, 08:26:56 pm »

Quote from: bball2020 on November 17, 2010, 07:26:07 pm

by bar position, I referred to how you squat.

IE
High bar- olympic squat, knees travel foreward and it mirrors the jumping

Low bar- more sit back involved with very minimal knee travel

I agree, strength is a general stimulus, especially when its for sport. And your right its to strengthen the musclurature not actually be the means to how your VJ goes up, or this forum would all be about powerlifting and squatting 500. But if it is just 1 rep VJ, squatting is almost a special exercise in this regard IMO and is definitely a huge bang for your buck so you want to maximize its potential in this regard.

My main point of that little rant i guess was to say that anyone who thinks that for VJ, low bar deep squat is the golden egg so to speak, they are mistaken as theoretically olympic high bar would have a greater transfer

And my point is that it doesn't matter at all whether it's low or high.

LanceSTS · « **Reply #23 on:** November 17, 2010, 08:35:50 pm »

  Low bar position does not mean less knee travel, in fact, in the style of squat Steven is referring to the knees track forward quite a bit compared to a traditional wide stance, low bar, hip squat. There are plenty of lifters who squat high bar with very minimal forward knee travel and sit the hips back very far just like there are plenty of low bar squatters who allow the knees to drift forward and sit more straight down rather than back.

  The bar position is simply giving you better leverage on the bar, what you do from there will determine the other things mentioned more. One big advantage of using the low bar, moderate stance, knees tracking over feet, style squat that Rip preaches is it allows the knees to track forward with much less pressure on them due to the bar position. I have had several athletes used to high bar squatting with lots of knee travel simply switch the bar position and still maintain nearly the exact same squat with that one exception, the difference in the stress on the knees is huge, the low bar position greatly aids this issue.

  For athletes who are jumping, running, etc, and also squatting, I like to use that style of squat MOST of the time, I have found that it is easy to teach and greatly reduces the stress on the knees, strengthens the hell out of the hamstrings, and allows more weight to be used than other styles. If someone is comfortable with another style then by all means I have no issues with them doing that, the most important thing is that you get a style of squat that you are comfortable with and believe in, if youre always guessing wether or not you should be doing something else you will not get optimal results from anything youre doing anyhow.

adarqui · « **Reply #24 on:** November 17, 2010, 08:40:51 pm »

in reality, it only matters if you're improving your ability to produce force in the ROM necessary for jumping, how you do that doesn't necessarily matter, but i still think if you look at it in a minutiae sort of way, it would be in this order:

1. half squat
2. oly front squat
3. oly back squat
4. PL back squat

again, the best bets would be #2,3,&4 year round, but for lanky bishes, #1 can be used year round.. all other bishes can use #1 if they are peaking etc, it's definitely an option that might really spur on some extra gains.

if you want to look at transfer, you have to look at the body position AFTER the athlete is coming back up out of the squat, into the half squat position.. for most people, when jumping, that will be very upright torso with knees jutting forward to varying degrees, but as for squat, it's the torso being upright that seems the most important to me in terms of transfer.. unless you're jack cascio who thinks quads are 15% of SVJ/RVJ.. lol.

some pics: oly back

some pics: oly front

some pics: rippetoe squat

^^ that is definitely the "least specific" in regards to SVJ/RVJ of the squats pasted..

peace

adarqui · « **Reply #25 on:** November 17, 2010, 08:42:39 pm »

Quote from: LanceSTS on November 17, 2010, 08:35:50 pm

If someone is comfortable with another style then by all means I have no issues with them doing that, the most important thing is that you get a style of squat that you are comfortable with and believe in, if youre always guessing wether or not you should be doing something else you will not get optimal results from anything youre doing anyhow.

truth.

LanceSTS · « **Reply #26 on:** November 17, 2010, 08:47:21 pm »

Right, there is no question that if your goal is an SPP type movement, the half squat will win hands down. The thing that alot seem confused on is that the bar position can still be a low bar position and be an olympic style squat, the squat in the video above is definitely more of a powerlifting style squat with less knee involvement. This is a good example of a low bar "olympic style" squat.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t6sqL4PLdA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t6sqL4PLdA</a>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t6sqL4PLdA

bball2020 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 17, 2010, 09:34:22 pm »

lance, how low does rip preach low bar? I mean, theres low bar, then there is LOW bar if that makes sense lol...

good posts

LanceSTS · « **Reply #28 on:** November 17, 2010, 11:24:45 pm »

Yes that makes perfect sense and is another variable that will dictate the amount of forward lean of the torso and forward knee travel to reach full depth. From what Ive seen of his videos and read from his book and posts he is teaching a "higher" low bar position than alot of powerlifters use. If you look at alot of his guys squatting they keep their torsos fairly upright compared to lifters utilitzing a deeper bar position and less knee travel. Steven Miller would be a better person to ask about what exactly Rip says but from the info i have seen and read from him that is what he is advocating.

Individual levers will play a big role in optimal bar placement as well, longer torsos and shorter legs will be able to keep the torso more upright (see olympic lifters adarq posted), and shorter torso, longer legs (see the low bar squat adarq posted) will have to have more forward lean regardless of bar position. The low bar position allows the lifters with shorter torsos to stay more upright and allow the knee travel without as much knee stress.

(here is one of rips lifters squatting at wfac)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqjXWZaOElA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqjXWZaOElA</a>

bball2020 · « **Reply #29 on:** November 17, 2010, 11:34:58 pm »

good stuff..does he/you like the 45 deg feet out? I try to go 35 degress, but im thinking, looking at my form, its probally 45 degrees..

Adarq.org

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Author Topic: low bar squat vs high bar squat (Read 37665 times)

Kingfish

Re: low bar squat vs high bar squat

LBSS

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bball2020

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LBSS

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adarqui

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LBSS

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bball2020

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LBSS

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LanceSTS

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adarqui

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adarqui

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LanceSTS

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bball2020

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LanceSTS

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bball2020

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