Adarq.org

YEP

Just curious if everyone could post

A) low bar or high bar squat and how strict of a technique

B) Squat before and VJ(OR RVJ) before  IE  8 months ago squatted 315lbs while jumped 28 inches

C) Squat after and VJ(OR RVJ) after   IE currently squat 375lbs and jumps 34 inches

D) Why you choose to do low bar or high bar(or dont do either)

A) Low-bar squat 1rm: 452 lbs; pretty good technique, consistently below parallel

B) Low-bar squat 8 months ago: 353 lbs; SVJ: ~31"

C) Low-bar squat: see A; SVJ: currently at 36"

D) Low-bar allows more weight to be used because of more muscle mass being actively involved. Low-bar squat strength can therefore be increased faster, which makes it a more useful exercise compared to the typical high-bar squat - which is still a good exercise. High-bar squat supposedly having more carry-over into VJ is IMHO a bad argument, because carryover happens, at least from the late novice stage upwards, through different exercises anyway, like powersnatches, powercleans, jump squats, depth jumps and the like.

But let me say this: Which squat you train primarily is a rather minuscule aspect of training and I think it is more important to do the right stuff (for example make the decision to begin with squats at all) at the right time. Also making sure to stay unstuck for as long as possible in a strength phase is more important than doing it high-bar or low-bar. Both probably have similar usefulness for VJ training as long as you get stronger and then use that strength to become more explosive. That being said, choosing the low-bar technique plays a role in "staying unstuck", too and it is actually rather easy to learn and trains the body in a very balanced fashion.

i guess i do high bar, but not with olympic form kind of a hybrid?  IDK tell me what you think, feels pretty comfortable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfdwWPpbyj0

I don't think that this is a good squat to be honest - regardless of high or low bar. Observe several problems:
- weight shifts to the forefoot at the bottom instead of staying over mid foot the whole time
- knees traveling forward a lot while having little hip involvement which causes a lot of unnecessary stress on the knees
- sufficient depth is reached at no point causing a less than optimal involvement in muscle mass, muscle, that would be pretty useful for jumping
- the squat as a whole looks more like a leg press

Things I like:
- stance looks good
- correct alignment of knee with the big toe (knees out)

IMO you are doing yourself a disservice by not trying hard enough to improve your squat form. I am not talking the high-bar vs. low-bar discussion here but about learning a proper squat. Is your squat better than 90% of what you see in gyms? Sure it is. Is it good enough? That is the question you have to answer for yourself.
A good squat will recruit more muscle mass than yours by having you go over the full range of motion and will therefore be more beneficial for athletic performance. Using your hips better in the squat will improve hip strength better which is going to be beneficial for athletic performance. It will also decrease stress on the knees which you have enough off by jumping, plyos and stuff like that. And staying uninjured is pretty good for athletic performance.

sufficient depth is debatable IMO as it is atleast a half squat/close to parallel

It's not debatable since a half squat, which yours is, is not a squat. It is a different exercise and one might say more limited in its application.

i feel great glute activation and drive though so is that not a sign that I am using hips more?

More than what? More than you would use them with good technique? I don't think so.

Agree on the knee travel foreward a lot, I mean I do think it has to travel foreward and not just be a power lifter knees dont really move squat..

I agree that there has to be forward travel in a raw squat to get more quad contribution and hence create a balanced strength movement. But yours is clearly excessive in face of how little you use your hips. I can see the same by the way in your depth drops.

"A good squat will recruit more muscle mass than yours by having you go over the full range of motion and will therefore be more beneficial for athletic performance."

Again, not as clear cut as you make it out to be, especially if your focusing on vert mainly IMO..but yea I want to break parallel without rounding back at all just for main sake of consistency/fun  not "full" or ATG though    just my preferance

What do you want to imply with that? That it does not matter if you full squat or half squat?

I have been addressing this point a lot recently and I will do it again. Some people keep thinking that different training methods will still produce the same results and that they therefore have a reason to pick the method that is the most comfortable for them. My stance is that not every method can be the best, most effective, most time efficient method. And not every type of squat can be the best squat. If we take training seriously our concern has to be to find that best method or get as close as possible to it with what we do. As one of the best strength movements the squat is a key exercise for many athletes that they spend a lot of time on in the gym. And yet most people are of the opinion that it is okay to half squat instead of squat, to not use their hips in the squat, to not be consistent with their technique, essentially to do it however it feels comfortable for them at a given time. And those people are often wondering why they don't get stronger. These are the same people who are afraid to take 30 minutes of their time to learn a powersnatch and prefer to jump squat instead. They don't make this decision because they think the jump squat is the better exercise - which would be legitimate. But they don't care if it is or not. They only care about their comfort and what is easier to do. You don't want to be one of those people if want your training to be successful. Low-bar vs. high-bar might be a rather minuscule decision, choosing to half squat with bad technique instead of full squat with good technique is not.

Having said that, if you think your squat is the best squat for developing a high VJ than by all means go ahead and keep doing it. But please enlighten my why your squat is better than a full squat, which activates more muscle, puts less stress on the knees, uses the hamstrings and adductors better and utilizes a greater range of motion?

do you see the same things in this squat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFGbr_GoAcY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7X5MeyG_94

Yes, I feel very similar about these squats.

Again, im not at the position to say one is "better" than the other...just like one could argue a person could get GREAT results all doing these exercises, even though like u stated and its true the movements and muscles loaded are totally different

-high bar full squat

-low bar full squat power lifting style(no knee travel)

-low bar power style(rippltoe)

-Bulgarian Split Squats

-Heavy Lunges

- box squat wide

- box squat regular

- front squats

front squats have the highest transfer to standing vert IMO, next in line would be high bar full squat or high/low bar half squat.. as for RVJ, half squatting has by far the most transfer imo, but should not be used solely by people who can easily squat ATG in the various styles (people with high SHR for example).. for people with really lanky leverages (low SHR), half squatting can be used entirely IMO.

box/pin squat variations are fine, they have less transfer imo, but they are fine for mixing it up or utilizing them as more of an assistance to help increase strength on the other squat styles.

deadlift just makes you rugged, and i'm coming to be a big fan of it purely for stim, as the eccentric portion of the lift can be minimized greatly, so you get a ton of p-chain (emphasis on glute) activation and of course still activate the quads.. good way to leave yourself stim'd up 2 days later. shouts to raptor for always promoting that one..

unilaterals have the least transfer of what you listed, but still, they can help improve the bilateral lifts greatly.. so i relegate these to assistance but IMO, they are absolutely necessary, even though I don't do them right now because going heavy on them flares up an issue I have in my sacral spine.

ETC

My view is strength is strength(unless its your sport).  If your getting stronger your getting stronger, who to say if you display it in the box squat, or the low bar squat, or the freaking BSS that your going to be better off?  Now this is taking into account that its an exercise thats not detrimental to your safety or performance and will give desired you desired adaptations(muscle mass,not kill your CNS every workout just to load it(extra high squats,leg press etc)

I agree here regardless of the statements I made about transfer above.. You can still achieve significant results using the various methods above, but some do transfer a bit more and will give you the absolute utmost bang for your buck.. If you're truly making strides to push your limits, getting legitimately stronger, as well as staying in shape & jumping & making sure to focus on reactive work, everything will come together.. but the glutes, quads, hamstrings, core, shoulders, calfs all have to be legitimately increasing in maximal strength to lay the base for improvements in explosive strength, which itself, leads to the HIGHEST transfer to vert/sprinting etc.. weight room stuff is way less specific than explosive strength exercises (plyos, drops, drop-catch, throws (jump squat/med ball/etc), oly's etc.

In terms of your statement about power snatches, I again disagree with you.  They are great explosive strength exercises, but although much harder in degree of difficulty technique wise, I do not believe any superior to other explosive strength means(jump squats, paused jumps, from box jumps whatever)

Again, this is my view on the matter and trying to convince me otherwise and that I "have" to squat till my ass touches my calves or whatever will not counter the view that i have witnessed and read about(James Smith a ton) that strength is general work and should be viewed as such.

I don't believe snatching/oly's is any more effective than the stuff I listed above. A jump squat is a throw, which itself, is more specific to vert, because you are throwing yourself into the air on both exercises, except one is overloaded with ~30% of your 1RM squat. Both oly's and throws are limited by max strength, so their usage just becomes trying to produce more of that strength you already have in the time needed for an athletic movement. The amount of stimulus for "growth and adaptation" in each exercise, is not much really, I mean you make improvements in form/motor programming/small yet significant improvements in rfd/explosive strength, but you are limited by max strength. For example, shock plyometrics shits on both methods, because not only is the specificity way higher than both ideologies just talked about, but the stimulus upon impact causes a protective involuntary flood of nervous system output, that of which you cannot achieve in jump squatting or oly lifting. So now you have a REAL stimulus for growth, independent of your max strength.. sure max strength is still the base, but shock plyos can actually improve max strength in their utilization ALONE.. the only problem is, shock plyos are so intense that they cannot be used throughout the year (you can however use oly's/other explosive/reactive work), but you get the idea.

adarq cant squat hardly a lot of weight at all. I bet he cant even bulgrain or lunge a lot, or box squat a lot. He still damn strong.

hey bish calm teh fawk down.. ;d

right, i'm pretty weak, i've never been one to brag about my strength.. to my defense, i'm 152 today and I can hit 225 x 10 on half squat in waffles last night, which is near a projected 2xBW half squat.. I did lunge some pretty impressive weights last year before my detraining, 225 x 1 for multiple singles (high frequency) @ 165, but i have an issue in my sacral spine which flares up badly when I get strong on unilaterals, even more so on stepups, it's debilitating.

My sole reason for half squatting is this: deep squatting in oly shoes severely injured my hip, and I have seen many others, even those with perfect form, suffer similar injuries. With half squatting, it rarely flares up, and allows me to actually walk without pain :d I get significant glute/hamstring by half squatting, improving my bilateral strength, improving mass in those muscles groups, while not having to worry about my hip.. Improvements in my half squat lead to improvements in my jumping, that's how it was last year and that's how it is now.. I probably improve more than others because of my build, long legs short torso, those who can easily hit depth on squat with proper form, would not see the improvements that I see, most likely.

My little brother squats wide low bar and defintely no where near full and has tremendous lower body strength which helped him make huge strides in speed and explosiveness while also becoming a state champ and also working himself basically into being a division one football recruit..I have seen the results personally of James Smith and how he coaches his guys, although he would not advise my forward knee travel technique at all.

your forward knee travel is not as bad as kingfish's or frank yang's, and they are both around 40" RVJ and damn strong.. i don't like shifting onto toes at the bottom of the squat too, for sure, that's something to fix, but i personally don't care much about a little forward knee travel.

But I degrees, your statement on form holds true 100% accurate.  Whatever general strength exercise you use, being orthopedically sound is THE most important issue, period.  And if my form is setting me up for injury, obviously this is something I must alter.

From a squat perspective, I always view the following in terms of safety

1) Low back rounding -  Mine I believe is fine, maybe its because im quite parallel or at parallel though

2) Knee travel-  Again I think its natural, BUT your right when mine is extreme.  My ass should be back farther.

Solution- I am going to watch ripptoes videos tonight and tomorrow, place the bar lower, although not ridiculously low,and hopefully this allows me to get ass back more and knees less.  Ill try to tape. Appreciate your input

Also, Im not trying to start an argument or be a jerk and I appreciate your input.

just make sure you don't drastically alter your squat form right now, i mean, sure, play around, if it feels better go with it, drop some vids etc, but you just hit some recent PR's on jumping, so no need to start worrying about changing up squat considerably, especially given your squat really isn't that much of an issue when it comes to athletic improvement.

peace

good points darq, not going to make a drastic switch. Maybe lower the bar a litttle get a little more butt duck, because i do think as long as your not totally shooting your knees foreward, along with your knees being in line IE not caving in, knees shouldnt be a problem on squat.  Know what u mean on the full squat hip thing too, although my flexiblity may be more of an issue than my levers, but i dont feel like im build for squatting deep by any means

how do i fix the coming forward on toe thing? Is my squat the same depth as your adarq?


steven miller- good stuff man know where ur coming from

good points darq, not going to make a drastic switch. Maybe lower the bar a litttle get a little more butt duck, because i do think as long as your not totally shooting your knees foreward, along with your knees being in line IE not caving in, knees shouldnt be a problem on squat.  Know what u mean on the full squat hip thing too, although my flexiblity may be more of an issue than my levers, but i dont feel like im build for squatting deep by any means

how do i fix the coming forward on toe thing? Is my squat the same depth as your adarq?

the shoes you are wearing are going to contribute to the coming forward onto toes issue, if you were in oly shoes it wouldn't happen. the first rep is good (in regards to going onto toes) because you are a little higher, the next reps are deeper so you're getting that shift.. without changing form, try stretching the calfs/"ankles" out very good prior to squatting, or in between sets, see if that helps, this is to allow for easier getting into dorsiflexion without having to shift the knees forward at the bottom.. other than that, are you focusing on producing force through the middle of the foot? i'm not one to promote pushing through the heel, but middle of foot ya.

steven miller- good stuff man know where ur coming from

kingfish, youre knees have never hurt at all?   I know mine havent really much at all

Although I dont go olympic shoes/deep like u, do u see any problems with my squat?