Author Topic: Jump Training Multiple Times a day  (Read 9061 times)

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lamp

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Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« on: December 19, 2010, 08:50:18 pm »
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When I get bored, I like to read through some of the old threads on the Charlie Francis website.  There are a lot of really knowledgeable coaches who post there and the discussions get really interesting.

I was reading through one of these old discussions when I noticed the user Christian Thibaudeau who was posting in 03 in his pre-T-Nation days.

The discussion was about the frequency of training for the olympic weightlifting teams of bulgaria and the other eastern bloc countries.

According to Thibs, one of the primary reasons for their style (multiple sessions per day) was  as follows:

Quote
2. Increased synaptic facilitation. There is evidence that motor learning is improved more by frequency of practice than by volume of practice. By training 2-3 times per day, event at equivolume, the motor learning effect is greater.

Vertical Jumping is a motor skill just like lifting weights is.  So wouldn't doing jump training multiple times a day on a training day be more beneficial?

I assume for a recovery standpoint it wouldn't be good to train every day but on training days this suggests that the optimal amount would be several (2-3) shorter jump sessions.  This should lead to better/faster results.

Thoughts on this?

Raptor

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 12:35:01 am »
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I'm down with that and I agree, it will improve movement efficiency a lot but once that's up to it's "maximum level" if you will... you're only going to be limited by your strength so...
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

BMully

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 12:44:22 am »
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I have thought of that aswell, yet I don't know enough to know if this would work or not. I would as lance/adarq, one of the two will reply here.

LanceSTS

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 01:29:27 am »
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  Zatsiorsky talks about this alot in S & P of Strength Training, basically the reasoning behind the multiple sessions each day were to allow testosterone levels to peak and not wane.  The lifters would take short naps in between sessions with their legs elevated, the amount of work performed in each of the sessions was not extensive.

   He then goes on to talk about the reasoning behind it- "The underlying assumption is that the elevated blood testosterone level can be maintained for 45 to 60 min only and that a 30 min rest is needed to restore the testosterone level. "  He goes on to say that this assumption has not been proven and that the underlying mechanism behind the elevated testosterone level could be due to : "increased testosterone production" or "a decreased amount of testosterone acceptors in muscles and other tissues."

  Lots more info in that book on splitting the training volume throughout multiple sessions if youre interested in it.
Relax.

adarqui

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 04:11:18 am »
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When I get bored, I like to read through some of the old threads on the Charlie Francis website.  There are a lot of really knowledgeable coaches who post there and the discussions get really interesting.

I was reading through one of these old discussions when I noticed the user Christian Thibaudeau who was posting in 03 in his pre-T-Nation days.

The discussion was about the frequency of training for the olympic weightlifting teams of bulgaria and the other eastern bloc countries.

According to Thibs, one of the primary reasons for their style (multiple sessions per day) was  as follows:

Quote
2. Increased synaptic facilitation. There is evidence that motor learning is improved more by frequency of practice than by volume of practice. By training 2-3 times per day, event at equivolume, the motor learning effect is greater.

Vertical Jumping is a motor skill just like lifting weights is.  So wouldn't doing jump training multiple times a day on a training day be more beneficial?

I assume for a recovery standpoint it wouldn't be good to train every day but on training days this suggests that the optimal amount would be several (2-3) shorter jump sessions.  This should lead to better/faster results.

Thoughts on this?


I think for someone who lacks efficiency at jumping, it could definitely help to accelerate motor learning, as long as it's not maximal for every session throughout the day. For all others though, I think maximal jumping mutliple times per day has some problems. The most glaring issue I think it has is overuse. Maximal jumps are really intense on the joint surfaces, achilles, patella, and quad tendons. If you jump 2-3 times per day, maximally, at a somewhat high frequency (3-4x/week), I think your risk of overuse injury sky rockets. The stress placed on the joint articular surfaces of the ankle, knees, and spinal column is far greater than isotonic lifts. This is why I think you could squat/oly more safely, multiple times per day @ at high frequency, than jump multiple times per day at that same frequency. If you are "shut down" following the first session of the day, the 2nd and 3rd etc will be alot more risky. I personally feel like i've run out of certain "neurotransmitters" following a max effort jump session, hard to explain.

Beyond that, I think staleness is a huge issue. It's alot easier to push through staleness on oly's/squats etc, since you have a far greater time to display force. Also, lifts result in far greater "testosterone production" than jumps. If you are stale during jumps, you will have no motivation to actually jump. I imagine one would get stale fairly quickly jumping multiple times per day+high frequency. In these examples though, keep in mind lifts aren't ABSOLUTELY MAXIMAL during high frequency/multi session days, they usually are held back via heart rate/percentages/whatever, there's not usually a considerable psycheup... jumping maximally requires some psyching up, this would mean you have multiple psycheups per day, which just would result in way too much fatigue imo.

if the jumps are submax, for a motor learning goal, then it's doable, but max jumps, I just don't see it being effective.

peace man

lamp

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 10:50:42 am »
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Ok,

yea that makes sense.

But if you were to keep the same overall volume and just spread it throughout multiple sessions on the training day instead of just one, wouldn't that be better from both a hormonal and motor unit standpoint?

Raptor

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 11:03:59 am »
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I was jumping a lot (daily) maximally and didn't have a problem when I was younger (16-18 years old). Very light at that time, ~67 kg (147 lbs) in bodyweight, so not a lot of damage on the bones and joints I guess. It really really helped ingrain my movement efficiency off one leg... if I didn't have that now I'd probably be soooo much worse than I am.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

BMully

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 11:06:19 am »
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I was jumping a lot (daily) maximally and didn't have a problem when I was younger (16-18 years old). Very light at that time, ~67 kg (147 lbs) in bodyweight, so not a lot of damage on the bones and joints I guess. It really really helped ingrain my movement efficiency off one leg... if I didn't have that now I'd probably be soooo much worse than I am.

dagger i think has had some gains from high frequencey max/submax work.He has knee troubles though.


Kellyb

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 12:01:34 pm »
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Also jumping is a very gross dominant movement pattern. It's extremely simple from a motor learning perspective. Hell, it's really the 4th movement we learn to do as kids. First we learn to crawl, then we learn, to walk, then we learn to run, then we learn to jump.  Once you learn those movements you're not gonna forget how to do them. You need some practice to hone things but it doesn't take a ton.

The o-lifts are technical as hell. For each change of weight on the bar the technique has to adapt.  There are 3 lifts to master and multiple assisstance exercises to do. A big reason advanced O lifters train so often is to give each lift more "fresh" focus.  It's kinda like if you competed in track and field and you were a jumper, a javelin thrower, and a pole vaulter you'd have to spend plenty of time on each one.

djoe

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2010, 05:43:04 pm »
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i dont think its all about the motor learning aspect.

most of the adaptations would come from synaptic facilitation.

same issue is covered in pavel's books, i think more in power to the people. pfaff talks about something simmilar, there are some organells in the myelin sheets, and basically the neural signal is 'lost' or not 100% of it gets to the muscle. through repetitive usage of that pattern, the organelles become like 'superconductors' and nothing is lost...vague explanation but makese sense somehow, ill try to find the exact interview.
re-evaluate, daniel-san, re-evaluate

Kellyb

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2010, 01:11:54 pm »
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Technically synaptic facilitation (and the other science behind "grease the groove" concepts) are a component of motor learning. I'm not saying they don't work - for stuff you're relatively unfamiliar with the approach works GREAT (like planches for example). I'm sure for some people the concept will work great for VJ. But if you're the type of guy who:

A: has participated in a jumping oriented sport for a long time
B: performs and thinks about jumping on a daily basis
and
C:  is fairly well coordinated without significant mobility, postural impairments

I don't think you'll get  a whole lot out of it. 


Raptor

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2010, 02:09:18 pm »
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That makes me remember something:

When I was jumping very high with very little strength, that always occured after a GREAT warmup and never without a warmup. My vert was so low with warming up (lower than now). But the thing was - I was also doing STATIC stretching before my jumps. You know, just because our sports teacher forced us to...

But what if that's actually beneficial? I mean, I know it's going to temporarily make you weaker, but I was jumping great like 20 minutes after that occured (and also being warmed up greatly).
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

tychver

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2010, 03:09:25 pm »
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Technically synaptic facilitation (and the other science behind "grease the groove" concepts) are a component of motor learning. I'm not saying they don't work - for stuff you're relatively unfamiliar with the approach works GREAT (like planches for example). I'm sure for some people the concept will work great for VJ. But if you're the type of guy who:

A: has participated in a jumping oriented sport for a long time
B: performs and thinks about jumping on a daily basis
and
C:  is fairly well coordinated without significant mobility, postural impairments

I don't think you'll get  a whole lot out of it. 



Just to reinforce point C....

In the small amount of time I actually focused solely on jumping I added 3" to my running vert by correcting some ankle/feet issues. It's something that's often left off the mobility/posture list but pretty crucial for running vert.

Raptor

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2010, 04:00:11 pm »
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What exactly did you do? And how did you discovered that you have ankle/feet issues?
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Kellyb

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Re: Jump Training Multiple Times a day
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2010, 12:58:13 pm »
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yes many people do have significant mobility and recruitment impairments. I got a TON of positive feedback from the 7 dayVJ cure. Some people reported gaining as much as 3 inches just from adding those mobility and activation exercises for a week.

Quote
That makes me remember something:

When I was jumping very high with very little strength, that always occured after a GREAT warmup and never without a warmup. My vert was so low with warming up (lower than now). But the thing was - I was also doing STATIC stretching before my jumps. You know, just because our sports teacher forced us to...

But what if that's actually beneficial? I mean, I know it's going to temporarily make you weaker, but I was jumping great like 20 minutes after that occured (and also being warmed up greatly).

Dude wait until you're 37!  It takes me an hour just to get ready to train and I can barely walk without a warmup (seriously).  Static stretching is not the evil it's made out to be. As long as it's accompanied by general movement work to get the blood flowing you're not gonna notice any detriments.  The best warmups are long lengthy warmups and most peopel could be helped by doing more IMO.. I remember in high school basketball  usually I jumped the best at halftime.  That was after a pregame warmup, lots of stretching, first half action , then I'd finally be ready to be 100% ready to go.