Author Topic: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping  (Read 20992 times)

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steven-miller

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2012, 06:16:05 am »
+1
irrational fear of putting on useful body mass.

That's just it. Fat isn't useful body mass. Is there any way we can increase strength/power/elasticity and remove body fat efficiently?

Why do you think fat is not useful? A certain amount of body-fat IS useful and necessary. The question is rather where the optimum range for a given individual and goal is.
The problem you have, and that is where "irrational" comes into play, is that you want to LOOK lean as well as perform, train and recover well. Recognize the capital wording of "look" - that is to emphasize that this is a rather different goal from improving sports performance. If you weren't heavily concerned about your abs you would aim to optimize the ES/BW ratio slowly and steadily over time, regardless of which body composition comes along in the process. Instead you for some reason think that you can avoid optimization problems between opposing goals, which you cannot.

Also realize the high probability that optimal BF-levels differ between individuals depending on many factors. For example gender - women will probably perform best with higher BF% compared to men. Hormonal differences between individuals are also very likely to be an influence, as are a plethora of other things.

Finding which level YOU perform best at is going to be an iterative process and right now you probably are not able to come to a valid judgment. Train heavy for a while, make steady progress in your lifts and other athletic tasks, and don't worry too much about your bodyweight. You don't need to eat "unhealthy" or stuff yourself if you do not want to, but eat enough to recover at a normal rate for your degree of training advancement (read: very fast recovery and a lot more food than you eat when not training). Doing that correctly you will quickly understand that gaining bodyweight in the process is not going to do hinder your progress - quite the contrary is often true, especially with guys like you.

TheSituation

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2012, 12:23:07 pm »
0
Who will jump higher (same person so same body structure):

Same guy at 250 lbs and 500 lbs squat
Same guy at 150 lbs and 300 lbs squat

Off one leg ^^^

What about this:

Same guy at 200 lbs and 400 lbs squat with 15% bodyfat (less lean body mass but more powerful neural signals)
Same guy at 200 lbs and 400 lbs squat with 10% bodyfat (more lean body mass but less powerful neural signals)

First situation, assuming they have the same bodyfat percentage, the 250 pounder is much stronger than his squat is showing (he's also on tons of hormones), so he will jump higher off 2 legs. 1 leg has too many variables to have an answer for. Lebron jumps off one leg and he's not "skinny".

Second, it's the same thing. The guy with 10% is actually stronger, he is just worse at the squat. Neural signals for squatting may  have a carryover for jumping, but it's not a direct correlation, so the 2nd guy is jumping higher.


And LBSS, d-bol isn't good for that. Tren/hgh is good if you want to burn fat and put on tons of muscle.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 03:21:21 pm by TheSituation »
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Raptor

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2012, 01:34:54 pm »
0
Just wrote an article about this (actually, more 1-leg jump related):
http://evolutionaryathletics.com/blogs/raptor/2012/04/04/bodyweight-and-the-one-leg-jump/
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Harvey

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2012, 11:54:26 pm »
0
Quote
Same guy at 200 lbs and 400 lbs squat with 15% bodyfat (less lean body mass but more powerful neural signals)
Same guy at 200 lbs and 400 lbs squat with 10% bodyfat (more lean body mass but less powerful neural signals)

At the end of the day, I'm putting money on the latter being able to jump higher. Firstly, you said it's the same guy so how could he have different neural signals? But let's go with the fact they do have different NS. There's no real information supporting the difference in jump height when looking at neural signal strength. The solid information is that these people are equally as strong and one has less fat and is therefore lighter and will produce more power for body weight.

Quote
If you weren't heavily concerned about your abs you would aim to optimize the ES/BW ratio slowly and steadily over time, regardless of which body composition comes along in the process.

It's not about looks at all. It's about what will get me jumping higher, quicker. Right now I'm about 12% BFP and not very strong. I believe if I were to get down to 8% BFP and get a little stronger by the end of the year, I'd be jumping higher than if I were 12% BFP and considerably stronger.

On a side note, as a volleyballer there's something I've noticed recently. After a tournament (3+ days), EVERYONE jumps higher. Last time I got a PR running vertical was directly after a 7 day volleyball tournament (involving lots of jumping). Last night I went back to the gym after several weeks off weight training due to being at a tournament. I was able to jump a near PR (higher than I was prior to the tournament anyway). What does this tell us? The focus needs to be less weight-related and more jump-orientated, I think.

I don't think doing plyometrics 24/7 is going to be a lasting training regime and one will plateau, but I think people are too concerned with strength gains and don't focus on jumping enough. Completely off-topic, I know.
RVJ: 32", only 18" to go!
RVJ: 35", only 15" to go!

D4

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2012, 12:28:34 am »
+2
Quote
Same guy at 200 lbs and 400 lbs squat with 15% bodyfat (less lean body mass but more powerful neural signals)
Same guy at 200 lbs and 400 lbs squat with 10% bodyfat (more lean body mass but less powerful neural signals)
The solid information is that these people are equally as strong and one has less fat and is therefore lighter and will produce more power for body weight.


how the hell is he lighter?  they're both 200lbs



It's not about looks at all. It's about what will get me jumping higher, quicker. Right now I'm about 12% BFP and not very strong. I believe if I were to get down to 8% BFP and get a little stronger by the end of the year, I'd be jumping higher than if I were 12% BFP and considerably stronger.

On a side note, as a volleyballer there's something I've noticed recently. After a tournament (3+ days), EVERYONE jumps higher. Last time I got a PR running vertical was directly after a 7 day volleyball tournament (involving lots of jumping). Last night I went back to the gym after several weeks off weight training due to being at a tournament. I was able to jump a near PR (higher than I was prior to the tournament anyway). What does this tell us? The focus needs to be less weight-related and more jump-orientated, I think.

There's so many other variables as to why you may have jumped higher or your teammates or whatever...  This is the worst analysis I've ever fuckin read...  Maybe all you and your volleyball buddies have a lot of strength built up but the potential has never been utilized with lack of jumping... There are a million maybes.  Don't claim this little story tells us ALL that we should focus mroe on jump-oriented training, when everybody is different and has different needs....


I don't think doing plyometrics 24/7 is going to be a lasting training regime and one will plateau, but I think people are too concerned with strength gains and don't focus on jumping enough. Completely off-topic, I know.

Where are you even getting your information from???

Most jump programs out there are more plyometric focused...  On this FORUM, everybody advises frequent jumping WITH strength training...  WTH are you even talking about?

Every single one of your posts have been proven to be retarded... Now if you're weak and around 12%BF, and a double leg jumper, go get stronger would be my advice, and I would bet most other people's as well.  If not, so be it.  Stop trying to analyze and prove all kinds of retarded things and just go train.  You are obviously one of those people who think too much cause they don't know.  When you do know, you won't be thinking and talking about random shit and you will be DOING, not THINKING.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 12:31:49 am by D4 »
Goal is to dunk.

Vertical needed to dunk: 40"

Current vertical : 38.5"

D4

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2012, 01:16:24 am »
0
Harvey, it seems like you're trying to find an excuse to not squat and strength train, when you are obviously not strong.  You just want an excuse to jump and diet to look good.  Maybe I'm wrong, but you'd definitely benefit from focusing on strength training while still jumping 1-3x a week.
Goal is to dunk.

Vertical needed to dunk: 40"

Current vertical : 38.5"

Harvey

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2012, 01:23:20 am »
0
Harvey, it seems like you're trying to find an excuse to not squat and strength train, when you are obviously not strong.  You just want an excuse to jump and diet to look good.  Maybe I'm wrong, but you'd definitely benefit from focusing on strength training while still jumping 1-3x a week.

It's just because recently I've been doing a lot of squat/DL work with minimal jump work and saw virtually no VJ results. Yeah, I got stronger, but that's not what I'm after at the end of the day. I can't afford to squat for months on end with no VJ improvement. From what I've noticed, more plyometrics AS WELL AS squatting regularly will get me the results as well as some strength gains.

Currently, I'm planning on doing this:

No. Plyo Sessions   4
No. Strength Sessions   3
No. Power Sessions   1
No. Core Sessions   3
No. Flexibility Sessions   6
No. Recovery Sessions   6

I don't want an excuse to jump. I don't care how I look. The low BFP simply was common in virtually all good jumpers. Looks is a bonus. If jumping and losing fat is going to get me results now, then that's what I'm after.
RVJ: 32", only 18" to go!
RVJ: 35", only 15" to go!

Raptor

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2012, 02:39:51 am »
0
A low bodyfat is an indicator for some other stuff that helps, endocrine efficiency, better CNS and so on and so forth. So when you see a guy with a low bodyfat being athletic, there are more reasons behind that than just the low bodyfat alone.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2012, 01:28:47 pm »
0
@Harvey: You can do whatever you want. The fact that you are willing to do what others have tried with little success instead of what others have tried with lots of success tells a lot about either the quality of your thinking or your priorities. I wish you good luck either way.

TheSituation

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2012, 01:58:20 pm »
0
A guy with a 265 pound max squat is saying squatting didn't help him?
I don't lift for girls, I lift for guys on the internet



[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily




Say NO to Maroko

And also NO to anyone who associates with him. No Taylor Allan. No Adam Scammenauger. No Kelly Baggett. No Elliot Hulse. No Jtrinsey. NO JUMP USA


Don't PM me asking me training questions. I'm here for the lulz. If you want help, post on the forums and get help from all the members, maybe even me.

Raptor

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2012, 02:20:27 pm »
0
A guy with a 265 pound max squat is saying squatting didn't help him?

Maybe he weighs 100 lbs.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

T0ddday

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2012, 06:40:04 pm »
+3
I think an important point is being missed in so far as single leg vs double leg jumping is concerned.

It's commonly stated that squat/bw ratios are less important for single leg jumping and that low bodyweight is of more importance for single leg jumping.

Realize this comparison is usually made between STANDING double leg jumping and RUNNING single leg jumping. 

If we compared standing single leg jumping vs standing double leg jumping the difference would go away. 

In laymans terms we can remember that any running jump involves (a) absorbing/translating force (speed) and (b) making force/speed quickly.   A standing jump starts with speed==0 and thus only has part (b).   

Obviously, the approach needs to produce speed and thus also requires strength.  Indeed strength/bw will help more in for a 2-step approach single leg jump than a 4-step and 6-step and so forth.  However, if you don't constrain the run-in length on a single leg jump you remove one of the benefits of strength/bw from the single leg approach jump.   We recently submitted a paper on the optimal atmospheric long jump model.... essentially it's a sprint model with the parameter for drive phase removed.  Because this parameter is removed it's not surprising that more athletes who have a more sleight build tend to perform well in the approach single leg jump.   Don't make the mistake of assuming it's necessary to forgo strength and focus on losing body-weight to achieve a high single leg approach jump.... Sleight builds succeed, but success does not necessarily make a sleight build.  Additionally, you can find great counterexamples in the decathlon, athletes of all build who achieve near elite marks in all types of jumps. 

*******************************************************************************

As far as weight loss, I advise most athletes against long-term significant weight manipulation.  Obviously, being obese is a bad idea.  But if you are training hard and have any type of energy system work in your training (volleyball games, basketball games, sprinting tempo work, etc) you should achieve a manageable weight without intentionally restricting food, with the one caveat that you shouldn't eat complete junk sweets or drink alcohol.   Athletes with no energy system work (Olympic lifters, jumpers who don't also run the 4x100) might have to eat slightly under their appetite to achieve optimal weight, but that depends on the individual. 

Short term weight manipulation definitely has advantages for all athletes (a semi-fast the night before high-jump competition and a little dehydration the day of the event can pay dividends in a competition; especially when foolish competitors do silly things like carb-load the day before), but trying to lose substantial amounts of bodyweight can have unintended consequences that usually outweigh the benefits.  Essentially, if you are fat, train hard, or don't eat completely horrible, then theirs a 95% chance you will lose weight.  When you stop losing weight from that prescription then it's time to get stronger.

Raptor

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2012, 06:11:13 am »
0
A standing jump starts with speed==0 and thus only has part (b).   

That simply is not true. It would be true for a paused standing VJ. But in a regular one, when you quickly bend down you HAVE to amortizate that as well. So it's not completely 0 speed.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

T0ddday

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Re: Importance of Low Body Fat Percentage When Jumping
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2012, 10:35:30 am »
0
A standing jump starts with speed==0 and thus only has part (b).   

That simply is not true. It would be true for a paused standing VJ. But in a regular one, when you quickly bend down you HAVE to amortizate that as well. So it's not completely 0 speed.

Layman's terms.  Speed == Horizontal speed.  It's a long jump model.