Author Topic: how much squat for athletes?  (Read 21003 times)

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Raptor

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2012, 10:30:02 am »
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Good call.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2012, 10:55:14 am »
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What other reasonable choices really exist if you fall into the B category?

What about really going explosive, be it going very heavy with very low rep ranges (1-3, since these rep ranges force the recruitment of a very high % of the motor neurons) [...]

What is the progressive overload in this training method? More weight, right? And if you use more weight and hold everything else constant, you got stronger. And for type A stronger is possible without gains in bw, and for type B it is not - as we defined. So herein does not lie a solution.

[...] or using lighter weights and moving the bar as fast as possible (where the bar actually moves fast as well). There will be some hypertrophy involved as well considering the TUT, not that much as a regular strength workout (say 3x5) but the thing would be to make you learn to generate a lot of force very quickly (faster neural signals).

If this was an alternative then it would be easier to increase the olympic lifts than it is to increase the squat. I, and everyone else that tried, knows that this is not the case.
Explosive lifts (especially clean and snatch variations) are king when it comes to decreasing an explosive strength deficit (ESD). Gains in this area will come very quickly, but will not come for a long time. A couple weeks of adequate training and there is not much left from the ESD that you could utilize. After that you are back where you started. You can't increase max strength efficiently without a bw increase and you can't make existent strength usable for explosive events anymore because there is not enough ESD left - in other words, you do not have enough excess max strength...

god damn it, steven-miller, you've gotten better at writing, which means i'm actually reading your posts now, which means i'm buying what you're selling.

I am glad to get through...

Raptor

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2012, 11:52:46 am »
0
And for type A stronger is possible without gains in bw, and for type B it is not - as we defined. So herein does not lie a solution.

Why?

Maybe athlete A can naturally recruit 80% of his motor neurons when he jumps, whereas athlete B needs training to get to those 80% from his current 50%. He can do that without the need of additional muscle. Once he gets there, then obviously there's no other way than increasing muscle mass.

The question is - how can you know where you're at in terms of quick&high % recruitment ability and if you should continue to work on that or not?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 11:54:53 am by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

seifullaah73

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2012, 11:55:04 am »
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:

try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW

or

should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.

or

is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.
Warm up drills
   - a walk, b skip quick powerful switch (heel to hams focus), a runs, dribbles small to big to run, straight leg to runs (force, reflex, go up/forward). force to hit the ground before it hits the ground knee/hip is at 90 degrees.
   - acceleration: low heel recovery, shin angle low, drive legs back before hitting the ground and drive thighs/knee forward not up
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil
Arm also aids the legs in driving it down with power - seifullaah73

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High
http://www.adarq.org/progress-journals-experimental-routines/my-journey-to-hypertrophy/

Raptor

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2012, 02:41:46 pm »
0
Seriously, I can't understand a thing of what you're saying...
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

chrisbro1

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2012, 03:07:55 pm »
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:

How do you increase your squat 150% w/out gaining mass?

steven-miller

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2012, 03:44:38 pm »
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:

try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW

or

should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.

or

is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.

You do sets of 5 in the squat every couple of days and add weight every time. You do this until you hit 2.5 x bw.

If you get stuck before (fail twice in a row), deload 10% and work back up. If you get stuck again (fail twice in a row), deload 10% and work back up. If you get stuck again, vary volumes+intensities in the squat over the week and hit PRs weekly. Always eat enough to NOT fail scheduled reps and sets unnecessarily.

And for type A stronger is possible without gains in bw, and for type B it is not - as we defined. So herein does not lie a solution.

Why?

Maybe athlete A can naturally recruit 80% of his motor neurons when he jumps, whereas athlete B needs training to get to those 80% from his current 50%. He can do that without the need of additional muscle. Once he gets there, then obviously there's no other way than increasing muscle mass.

If the person could increase his strength without adding more bw, he would not have a problem, right? He can do that as long as it works, I am not against it at all. But when this person gets seriously stuck being still rather weak and his training weights are creeping upwards very slowly or not at all, then there is no reasonable alternative to gaining more muscle. If you squat less then two times your bodyweight and you are not AT LEAST making a mean increase of 5 lbs per week in the squat over a considerable time span, you are fooling around.
Check yourself: Look into your training logs from 6 months ago. When the weight you were doing then is not at least 100 lbs lighter then it is now, then there is a problem (given that everything else in your training is up to par and you are still under 2 x bw).

The question is - how can you know where you're at in terms of quick&high % recruitment ability and if you should continue to work on that or not?

You train powersnatches. When you don't make progress at least weekly, you need to gain strength.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 03:52:22 pm by steven-miller »

Raptor

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2012, 04:37:06 pm »
0
So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:

try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW

or

should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.

or

is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.

You do sets of 5 in the squat every couple of days and add weight every time. You do this until you hit 2.5 x bw.

If you get stuck before (fail twice in a row), deload 10% and work back up. If you get stuck again (fail twice in a row), deload 10% and work back up. If you get stuck again, vary volumes+intensities in the squat over the week and hit PRs weekly. Always eat enough to NOT fail scheduled reps and sets unnecessarily.

And for type A stronger is possible without gains in bw, and for type B it is not - as we defined. So herein does not lie a solution.

Why?

Maybe athlete A can naturally recruit 80% of his motor neurons when he jumps, whereas athlete B needs training to get to those 80% from his current 50%. He can do that without the need of additional muscle. Once he gets there, then obviously there's no other way than increasing muscle mass.

If the person could increase his strength without adding more bw, he would not have a problem, right? He can do that as long as it works, I am not against it at all. But when this person gets seriously stuck being still rather weak and his training weights are creeping upwards very slowly or not at all, then there is no reasonable alternative to gaining more muscle. If you squat less then two times your bodyweight and you are not AT LEAST making a mean increase of 5 lbs per week in the squat over a considerable time span, you are fooling around.
Check yourself: Look into your training logs from 6 months ago. When the weight you were doing then is not at least 100 lbs lighter then it is now, then there is a problem (given that everything else in your training is up to par and you are still under 2 x bw).

The question is - how can you know where you're at in terms of quick&high % recruitment ability and if you should continue to work on that or not?

You train powersnatches. When you don't make progress at least weekly, you need to gain strength.

I agree with everything you said.

In the powersnatches, though, it could be a matter of technique that's limiting you and not strength. For me personally, having weak shoulders, I'm afraid of using heavier weights (heavier than my max of 50 kg) since I have a BIG problem stabilizing the bar overhead and even keeping it there!
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2012, 05:11:14 pm »
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In the powersnatches, though, it could be a matter of technique that's limiting you and not strength. For me personally, having weak shoulders, I'm afraid of using heavier weights (heavier than my max of 50 kg) since I have a BIG problem stabilizing the bar overhead and even keeping it there!

If technique is bad but consistent, the rule still applies. If you have a sufficient ESD you should be able to PR your powersnatch every week.

LBSS

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2012, 05:32:57 pm »
+1
So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:

try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW

or

should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.

or

is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.

lol.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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Raptor

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2012, 05:41:24 pm »
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In the powersnatches, though, it could be a matter of technique that's limiting you and not strength. For me personally, having weak shoulders, I'm afraid of using heavier weights (heavier than my max of 50 kg) since I have a BIG problem stabilizing the bar overhead and even keeping it there!

If technique is bad but consistent, the rule still applies. If you have a sufficient ESD you should be able to PR your powersnatch every week.

What if you're limited by upperbody strength like I am? I could probably powersnatch more than I currently am if I wasn't afraid of not being able to hold the bar over my head/stabilize it/stop it there etc.

And why powersnatch and not say powerclean?
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2012, 06:00:10 pm »
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In the powersnatches, though, it could be a matter of technique that's limiting you and not strength. For me personally, having weak shoulders, I'm afraid of using heavier weights (heavier than my max of 50 kg) since I have a BIG problem stabilizing the bar overhead and even keeping it there!

If technique is bad but consistent, the rule still applies. If you have a sufficient ESD you should be able to PR your powersnatch every week.

What if you're limited by upperbody strength like I am? I could probably powersnatch more than I currently am if I wasn't afraid of not being able to hold the bar over my head/stabilize it/stop it there etc.

And why powersnatch and not say powerclean?

If you don't have enough upperbody strength to stabilize more than 50 kg overhead your training went severely wrong.

Luckily, powercleans would work just fine as well.

seifullaah73

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2012, 06:02:56 pm »
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:

try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW

or

should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.

or

is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.

lol.

Whats funny about my post?
Warm up drills
   - a walk, b skip quick powerful switch (heel to hams focus), a runs, dribbles small to big to run, straight leg to runs (force, reflex, go up/forward). force to hit the ground before it hits the ground knee/hip is at 90 degrees.
   - acceleration: low heel recovery, shin angle low, drive legs back before hitting the ground and drive thighs/knee forward not up
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil
Arm also aids the legs in driving it down with power - seifullaah73

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High
http://www.adarq.org/progress-journals-experimental-routines/my-journey-to-hypertrophy/

Raptor

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2012, 06:03:24 pm »
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Cool. Because in the powerclean I got from struggling to hang powerclean 70 kg to consistently hang powercleaning 80 kg, while the hang powersnatch stayed at ~45 consistently.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Dreyth

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2012, 06:05:50 pm »
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I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.

There are maybe 5 people on this forum that get close to this number.

Im gonna get there one day  :pissed:
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