Author Topic: High cut calves  (Read 34659 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BMully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
  • Respect: -41
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2011, 06:19:42 pm »
0
Usain's calves look really weird. Under his calf you can see there's another lump... that's a big soleus alright.




pjtvs

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Respect: +4
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2011, 06:32:49 pm »
0
A tendon can absorb forces like a rubber band, and then return that energy (due to collagen)
What rubber band is going to give you more force when you stretch it, a long one or a short one?
That is why a longer tendon is superior to a shorter one. At least that is my view on it.
Just because it is a passive structure does not mean it can help a lot in a vertical jump!

I think that if you can compensate a bit with your muscles for the elastisity you lose by having strong calf muscles, however, then you are using an active structure instead of a passive one.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2011, 08:25:01 pm »
0
What if you have a longer but more compliant tendon vs a shorter but stiffer tendon?
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

BMully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
  • Respect: -41
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2011, 08:39:41 pm »
0
What if you have a longer but more compliant tendon vs a shorter but stiffer tendon?

Don't matter, you still need strong thighs to have a high vert/sprint. Which is a bigger muscle? Glutes,hamstrings,quads..or just calves?


Why worry about what type you have. You can strengthen your leggs and achieve a high vertical still. As one can see from the pics, both types have had some success at vert and sprinting(or whatever explosive thing you do)












I don't see many high  cut calves do olympic lifting tho...but  low cut calves usually give a build for strength lifiting i think
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 08:49:45 pm by BMully »

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2011, 08:58:57 pm »
0
Oh yeah, I know, I don't worry about that or anything, it's just nice to know and decipher the intricasies of human structure and all that.

Some coaches use high cut calves as signs of possible track stars so... it has a possible practical application/effect.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

BMully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
  • Respect: -41
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2011, 09:07:50 pm »
0
Oh yeah, I know, I don't worry about that or anything, it's just nice to know and decipher the intricasies of human structure and all that.

Some coaches use high cut calves as signs of possible track stars so... it has a possible practical application/effect.

I think those coaches are dumb. I have a coach like that, let's just say he is not a brain surgeon and leave it at that.

Anyone can become faster, more explosive, and stronger if they train right. Most people are not genetically good enough to be

olympic lifters or olympic sprinters..but many people can come alot closer than those type of coaches think.

I'm not a coach, I just have my own ideas about training and stuff

Kellyb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2011, 02:32:13 pm »
0
High calves are gonna help with top speed and endurance running moreso than they will vert and early acceleration IMO. The tendons help save energy and spare muscular effort at a given work rate moreso than they contribute to positive concentric force. A good example of this is the difference between Kenyan runners and everyone else. They don't go faster, they just go forever without trying.

pjtvs

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Respect: +4
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2011, 02:42:34 pm »
0
High calves are gonna help with top speed and endurance running moreso than they will vert and early acceleration IMO. The tendons help save energy and spare muscular effort at a given work rate moreso than they contribute to positive concentric force. A good example of this is the difference between Kenyan runners and everyone else. They don't go faster, they just go forever without trying.

They cannot help with concentric force at all since they don't have sarcomeres.

I agree that they cannot help with acceleration, but why not with a vertical jump? And by that i especially mean a running vertical jump. Why would a running vertical jump be a purely concentric, voluntary movement? Imo tendons absorb the force and return it, just like an elastic. And the longer the elastic, the more force it can produce.

BMully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
  • Respect: -41
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2011, 02:43:33 pm »
0
High calves are gonna help with top speed and endurance running moreso than they will vert and early acceleration IMO. The tendons help save energy and spare muscular effort at a given work rate moreso than they contribute to positive concentric force. A good example of this is the difference between Kenyan runners and everyone else. They don't go faster, they just go forever without trying.

this would explain it perfectly...the high jump and olympic lifts are just one quick movement...so it does not really matter which one the person would have

yet the sprinters need to do mulitple efforts, so the high cut calves would help...not saying that they are the only ones that can be sprinters

Kellyb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2011, 03:43:32 pm »
0
High calves are gonna help with top speed and endurance running moreso than they will vert and early acceleration IMO. The tendons help save energy and spare muscular effort at a given work rate moreso than they contribute to positive concentric force. A good example of this is the difference between Kenyan runners and everyone else. They don't go faster, they just go forever without trying.

They cannot help with concentric force at all since they don't have sarcomeres.

I agree that they cannot help with acceleration, but why not with a vertical jump? And by that i especially mean a running vertical jump. Why would a running vertical jump be a purely concentric, voluntary movement? Imo tendons absorb the force and return it, just like an elastic. And the longer the elastic, the more force it can produce.



The general them of more current research is the role of pure tendon contribution to plyometric movements has been overstated in years past. If that weren't the case you wouldn't see the things talked about in page 1 of this thread.

pjtvs

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Respect: +4
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2011, 04:00:59 pm »
0
High calves are gonna help with top speed and endurance running moreso than they will vert and early acceleration IMO. The tendons help save energy and spare muscular effort at a given work rate moreso than they contribute to positive concentric force. A good example of this is the difference between Kenyan runners and everyone else. They don't go faster, they just go forever without trying.

They cannot help with concentric force at all since they don't have sarcomeres.

I agree that they cannot help with acceleration, but why not with a vertical jump? And by that i especially mean a running vertical jump. Why would a running vertical jump be a purely concentric, voluntary movement? Imo tendons absorb the force and return it, just like an elastic. And the longer the elastic, the more force it can produce.



The general them of more current research is the role of pure tendon contribution to plyometric movements has been overstated in years past. If that weren't the case you wouldn't see the things talked about in page 1 of this thread.

ok that's very interesting, any links on that research? Thanks for the explenation

Kellyb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2011, 04:20:58 pm »
0
Yeah here are a few relevant to the topic:



Why is countermovement jump height greater than squat jump height?
Bobbert MF, Gerritsen KG, Litjens MC, Van Soest AJ.

Institute for Fundamental and Clinical Movement Sciences, Amsterdam, The Netherlands. M_F_Bobbert@fbw.vu.nl

Abstract
In the literature, it is well established that subjects are able to jump higher in a countermovement jump (CMJ) than in a squat jump (SJ). The purpose of this study was to estimate the relative contribution of the time available for force development and the storage and reutilization of elastic energy to the enhancement of performance in CMJ compared with SJ. Six male volleyball players performed CMJ and SJ. Kinematics, kinetics, and muscle electrical activity (EMG) from six muscles of the lower extremity were monitored. It was found that even when the body position at the start of push-off was the same in SJ as in CMJ, jump height was on average 3.4 cm greater in CMJ. The possibility that nonoptimal coordination in SJ explained the difference in jump height was ruled out: there were no signs of movement disintegration in SJ, and toe-off position was the same in SJ as in CMJ. The greater jump height in CMJ was attributed to the fact that the countermovement allowed the subjects to attain greater joint moments at the start of push-off. As a consequence, joint moments were greater over the first part of the range of joint extension in CMJ, so that more work could be produced than in SJ. To explain this finding, measured and manipulated kinematics and electromyographic activity were used as input for a model of the musculoskeletal system. According to simulation results, storage and reutilization of elastic energy could be ruled out as explanation for the enhancement of performance in CMJ over that in SJ. The crucial contribution of the countermovement seemed to be that it allowed the muscles to build up a high level of active state (fraction of attached cross-bridges) and force before the start of shortening, so that they were able to produce more work over the first part of their shortening distance Lateral gastrocnemius thickness was the strongest predictor of absolute power for all jump types and between jump types (SJ: r2 = 0.181, p = 0.034; CMJ: r2 = 0.201, p = 0.014; DDJ: r2 = 0.122, p = 0.049; CMJ-SJ: r2 = 0.201, p = 0.014; DDJ-CMJ: r2 = 0.146, p = 0.034). Lateral gastrocnemius pennation angle was also the best predictor of relative power for all 3 jump types and between jump types (SJ: r2 = 0.172, p = 0.038; CMJ: r2 = 0.416, p = 0.000; DDJ: r2 = 0.167, p = 0.024; CMJ-SJ: r2 = 0.391, p = 0.000; DDJ-CMJ: r2 = 0.136, p = 0.039). Results for jump performance differ from those previously found for sprinting in that greater pennation and shorter fascicles, positively predicting jumping ability at increased prestretch loads reinforcing the need for training specificity. Our findings in resistance-trained men indicate that where jumping is vital to athletic success one can benefit from developing LG muscle architecture along with addressing eccentric strength.



Mechanical and muscular factors influencing the performance in maximal vertical jumping after different prestretch loads.
Voigt M, Simonsen EB, Dyhre-Poulsen P, Klausen K.

Department of Medical Anatomy, Panum Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.

Abstract
The objective of the present work was to study the interaction between the tendon elasticity, the muscle activation-loading dynamics, specific actions of the biarticular muscles, preloading and jumping performance during maximal vertical jumping. Six male expert jumpers participated in the study. They performed maximal vertical jumps with five different preloads. The kinematics and dynamics of the jumping movements were analysed from force plate and high speed film recordings. The amount of elastic energy stored in the tendons of the leg extensor muscles was calculated by a generalised tendon model, and the muscle coordination was analysed by surface EMG. The best jumping performances were achieved in the jumps with low preloads (counter movement jumps and drop jumps from 0.3 m). A considerable amount of the energy imposed on the legs by prestretch loading was stored in the tendons (26 +/- 3%), but  the increased performance could not be explained by a contribution of elastic energy to the positive work performed during the push off. During the preloading, the involved muscles were activated at the onset of the loading. Slow prestretches at the onset of muscle activation under relatively low average stretch loads, as observed during counter movement jumps and drop jumps from 0.3 m, prevented excessive stretching of the muscle fibres in relation to the tendon length changes. This consequently conserved the potential of the muscle fibres to produce positive work during the following muscle-tendon shortening in concert with the release of the tendon strain energy. A significant increase in the activity of m. rectus femoris between jumps with and without prestretch indicated a pronounced action of m. rectus femoris in a transport of mechanical energy produced by the proximal monoarticular m. gluteus maximus at the hip to the knee and thereby enhanced the transformation of rotational joint work to translational work on the mass centre of the body. The changes in muscle activity were reflected in the net muscle powers. Vertical jumping is like most movements constrained by the intended direction of the movement. The movements of the body segments during the prestretches induced a forward rotation and during the take off, a backward rotation of the body. A reciprocal shift in the activities of the biarticular m. rectus femoris and m. semitendinosus indicated that these rotations were counteracted by changes in the direction of the resultant ground reaction vector controlled by these muscles.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)


zgin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 847
  • Respect: +2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2011, 04:31:13 pm »
0
what  are some achilles tendon to calf length ratios for some elite jumpers and sprinters? what ratio would be considered "high cut" calves?
37.5

lamp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Respect: +30
    • View Profile
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2011, 04:42:57 pm »
0
if i read the 2nd study posted correctly, does that mean that calf strength is important?

BMully

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
  • Respect: -41
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: High cut calves
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2011, 10:54:08 pm »
0
what  are some achilles tendon to calf length ratios for some elite jumpers and sprinters? what ratio would be considered "high cut" calves?

Would high cut calves count as the calf being less than the tendon length?