Author Topic: Get Strength Front Squat Harness  (Read 17306 times)

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steven-miller

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 07:30:48 am »
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I have to disagree with you here Steven, from talking to a number of coaches it seems that extra coaching or not, for a lot of people it can take some time to get used to the way the bar feels for front squats which is one of the main reasons why many recreational athletes and trainers, even the quite serious ones, prefer to back squat.

I think the reason most prefer to back squat is because it is, in general terms, the "better" strength exercise. The front squat has its uses, but increasing the back squat comes easier and it benefits the average athlete just as much if not more. When the question is between the two nearly everyone prefers the back squat for this reason. I have never heard or read of discomfort being the problem - especially discomfort of the wrists since it does not speak to the correct execution of the exercise.

I took the approach that as neither I, or anyone I train, is a competitive weightlifter, the quickest and easiest way to overcome the comfort issue was with a very simple, effective and relatively cheap solution that clearly saves a lot of time in the learning curve. For me my goal is to find the quickest way to strengthen the legs. This achieves that nicely.

Are only competitive weightlifters required to perform an exercise correctly? Your harness does not save time in the learning curve btw., it just lets you get away with shitty control of the exercise. If that is the goal, fair enough.

It seems to be a bit dogmatic to ignore the training tools available that really can make things easier, especially as in my case, their is no actual need to perform the lift without the harness.

Especially in your case doing the front squat without the harness might prove to be a useful learning tool in improving your skills of assessing technical errors in an exercise and finding ways to correct them. The harness does not help with understanding of execution unfortunately.

Clarence

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2011, 07:54:19 am »
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Your harness does not save time in the learning curve btw., it just lets you get away with shitty control of the exercise. If that is the goal, fair enough.

Huh?  Why does it mean he has shitty control of the exercise if the rack position is uncomfortable?

steven-miller

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2011, 08:05:03 am »
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Your harness does not save time in the learning curve btw., it just lets you get away with shitty control of the exercise. If that is the goal, fair enough.

Huh?  Why does it mean he has shitty control of the exercise if the rack position is uncomfortable?

The shitty control part comes into play when your wrists hurt with heavy weights but not with light ones. I suspect either dropping the elbows or too much forward lean on the concentric to be the reason - something not rarely observed in heavy front squats. The thing is that this is not "good" technique. It is part of the exercise to keep the torso really, really upright. Failure to do so and treating that condition with a front squat harness is taking away work that the muscles of your body should do in controlling the movement better. Instead Jack keeps omitting that work which used to be inherent in the exercise with help of the harness.

JackW

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2011, 08:25:31 am »
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I think the reason most prefer to back squat is because it is, in general terms, the "better" strength exercise.

I know a lot of coaches who don't agree with this statement.

I have never heard or read of discomfort being the problem

This might be your problem right here Steven. A lot of coaches I have spoken to about the front squat will say the same thing - discomfort in the way the bar sits is a common thing. It isn't necessarily all about the wrists either. Most of the discomfort is in the load on the shoulders as it gets heavier.

Seriously I can't believe you have not ever heard of people finding front squats uncomfortable - and it has nothing to do with doing the exercise incorrectly.  Even back squats can be uncomfortable when people start doing them. It is almost like you are being intentionally naive here.

Are only competitive weightlifters required to perform an exercise correctly?
No but when the main goal of the lift which is to overload the legs is easier to learn and perform and load because you aren't being held back by having to painfully bear the load on your shoulders, well spending time getting used to something that you don't need to would be wasting peoples time.

Seriously Steven, it isn't that difficult to understand. The goal is to overload the quads, core etc. The front squat is a unique exercise in how it does that. There are two ways to do things

The hard way - spend a few weeks trying to get used to how a weight feels on your shoulders using lighter loads because "that is the way we always did it"

The easy way - achieve the exact same thing in about 2 minutes, with the added advantage of being able to use heavier loads by using a simple but effective front squat harness.

If your definition of "perform an exercise correctly" means without the use of any training aids, then yes, using your definition, pretty much just competitive weightlifters are the only ones "required" to perform the exercise "correctly".

You can still perform the lift correctly without having to be annoyed by the pain of the bar with a heavy weight on the shoulders. And look, obviously there are plenty of non-competitive weightlifters who have indeed got used to the pain and are front squatting some big loads without any sort of help. Good for them.

I would suggest that there are a LOT more non-competitive weightlifters who are missing out on the benefits of front squatting because they haven't been able to get used to it.


Your harness does not save time in the learning curve btw., it just lets you get away with shitty control of the exercise.
Riiiiiiight. And this observation is based on what exactly?


Especially in your case doing the front squat without the harness might prove to be a useful learning tool in improving your skills of assessing technical errors in an exercise and finding ways to correct them. The harness does not help with understanding of execution unfortunately.
Actually this is wrong too. By eliminating the most common issue, i.e. how uncomfortable the bar feels sitting on the shoulders, it actually allows you to focus more on the key aspects of the lift such as torso and neck position, heels on the ground etc.


JackW

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 08:30:16 am »
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The shitty control part comes into play when your wrists hurt with heavy weights but not with light ones. I suspect either dropping the elbows or too much forward lean on the concentric to be the reason - something not rarely observed in heavy front squats. The thing is that this is not "good" technique. It is part of the exercise to keep the torso really, really upright. Failure to do so and treating that condition with a front squat harness is taking away work that the muscles of your body should do in controlling the movement better. Instead Jack keeps omitting that work which used to be inherent in the exercise with help of the harness.

If it was just about the wrists I would agree, elbows dropping, poor wrist flexibility, poor form etc are more likely to be the culprits. The real pain I am referring to is the load sitting on the shoulders.

The harness allows you to eliminate this issue easily and quickly. Why make something harder than it needs to be when you can get the same or a better result in less time using a bit of help.

mj

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2011, 09:01:37 am »
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Haha. Jack can I ask more questions about your apparently useless harness. Does it hit your jewels or inner thighs at depth? Do the sharp corners bother you? And finally does the whole thing move forward or sit unevenly under load requiring you to 'push it off your torso' with your hand etc?

All things I've read on the interweb. Curious if you see any of that occuring.

JackW

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2011, 09:30:06 am »
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Haha. Jack can I ask more questions about your apparently useless harness. Does it hit your jewels or inner thighs at depth? Do the sharp corners bother you? And finally does the whole thing move forward or sit unevenly under load requiring you to 'push it off your torso' with your hand etc?

All things I've read on the interweb. Curious if you see any of that occuring.

Hi MJ

The version I have, which is the basic one with the shorter length which doesn't hit anywhere near the jewels. It only goes to about midway down your stomach. If there is any discomfort it is on the harness pressing against your stomach, but as mentioned in my original post, this is minimal.

No. I wasn't even aware of sharp corners, so it isn't bothering me.

With the load being at the front there is a very slight move forward if you start leaning forward. However, and Steven will love this no doubt, if you perform the lift "correctly" and maintain a fairly upright torso it is no problem. It sits nicely on the pins. Also you still need to keep the elbows high like a regular front squat.

The load doesn't really move at all when it is sitting on the pins. I have done quite a few lifts with my elbows up parallel to the floor and my forearms straight up without actually holding onto the bar at all and at no point have I felt like the bar was going to fall off.

 I will eventually do a review for verticaljumping.com of it because I do think it is a beneficial training aid that some people will be interested in (obviously not everybody  :D) and you guys can see for yourself how simple it is to use.

mj

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2011, 09:35:09 am »
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Nice man. Look forward to that. And thanks for the responses.

Didn't realise you were an aussie too. Good sh!t  8)

steven-miller

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2011, 09:38:29 am »
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I know a lot of coaches...

Before you wrote the above I was under the impression that your wrists are the main problem. You say that this is not the case and I can understand that he harness helps with the shoulders. Albeit I have to wonder if you have corrected your execution by now despite the harness or if this device encouraged you to just continue with bad habits that might negate some of the unique qualities of a front squat.

About the shoulder issue... I am not saying anyone should go light for weeks to get accustomed to the bar. I say you should not be a sissy and go heavy anyways and have dealt with it in a couple session and save yourself 200 bucks in the process. If your technique is correct it won't do you much harm aside from the slight discomfort for the time of the sets. If your execution is not up to par you should correct that first, harness or not. Sometimes I wonder how certain athletes are even able to compete since they seem to whine about the slightest ailments. I guess sometimes coaches even reinforce that behavior.

JackW

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2011, 10:09:48 am »
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Sometimes I wonder how certain athletes are even able to compete since they seem to whine about the slightest ailments. I guess sometimes coaches even reinforce that behavior.


I agree on this entirely. And there are definitely times when I see people try and get out of things just because they are a bit soft, but in this case I feel that for everybody I train, their isn't any need for them to deal with the discomfort when I can get the same result or better in an easier way, and ultimately, that is more important.

Also for what it is worth I was showing the harness to a coach I know recently who does have a background in Olympic lifting and does use front squats with his athletes in their programs as one of their primary lifts and he loved it. I know that this is a sample of 1, but I just did a google search and found a few other people with shared experiences.

T-Nation

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/null/getstrength_front_squat_harness

This from the Iron Woody site http://www.ironwoodyfitness.com/accessories.php



Jason Ferrguia - who isn't a massive fan of the front squats in the article

http://jasonferruggia.com/front-squats-n-stuff/

most people find front squats tedious and uncomfortable. If you do them correctly the bar will be resting on your front delts and nearly crushing your throat. They can also be stressful on the wrists and elbows as well, especially if you have big arms. Another problem is that with heavier weights form breaks down on front squats before it does on back squats and not due to the legs being fatigued.

I knew I wasn't the only one!

tychver

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2011, 12:57:44 am »
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Your harness does not save time in the learning curve btw., it just lets you get away with shitty control of the exercise. If that is the goal, fair enough.

Huh?  Why does it mean he has shitty control of the exercise if the rack position is uncomfortable?

The cause of pain in the rack position is nearly always bad thoracic and scapula mobility once the basic technique is covered.

JackW

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2011, 07:21:08 am »
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Your harness does not save time in the learning curve btw., it just lets you get away with shitty control of the exercise. If that is the goal, fair enough.

Huh?  Why does it mean he has shitty control of the exercise if the rack position is uncomfortable?

The cause of pain in the rack position is nearly always bad thoracic and scapula mobility once the basic technique is covered.

Hi Tychver

The pain I am referring to that is instantly eliminated is from the actual weight of the bar resting on the shoudlers. Essentially the front squat harness is spreading that load across a greater surface area which is why it is more comfortable. You no longer have to bear the load on the smaller surface area.

The fact that you don't need to worry about wrist, scapula or most of the other mobility and flexibility issues that are associated with the lift is just another handy bonus from using the device.

$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2011, 07:05:41 pm »
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From what I have read (not saying it's right) heavy weights year round dampens elasticity.

How do the guys with the best hops get round that & maintain there great elasticity?.

Raptor

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2011, 07:46:49 pm »
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From what I have read (not saying it's right) heavy weights year round dampens elasticity.

How do the guys with the best hops get round that & maintain there great elasticity?.

Simple: I don't.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

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Re: Get Strength Front Squat Harness
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2011, 06:56:23 am »
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From what I have read (not saying it's right) heavy weights year round dampens elasticity.

How do the guys with the best hops get round that & maintain there great elasticity?.

What is elasticity supposed to be?