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So I have a problem with good morninging my squats, which is even more of a problem with my focus on olypmic lifitng > athletic development/powerlifting. Before it would start to limit my squat, but now it limits my snatch (i catch, and lose it on the way up as i shoot my hips up out the hole...it isn't as much a problem in cleans)

WHY? So there seems to be two schools of thought. One of them being that you have a weak posterior chain and need to do more things like good mornings to strengthen the PC and thus fix the leaning forwards in the squat. IMO this is totally wrong and will make the problem worse, at least in my case. The other seems to be that weak quads = body loads the posterior chain and makes you do a good morning instead of a squat. Mobility would be another one, however since i can sit rock bottom in a narrow grip overhead squat and only lose my upright torso on the way up suggests it's not my problem. Another would be just a bad motor pattern - which is kinda linked to weak muscles anyway.

HOW TO FIX?
so im looking for suggestions on how to make my squat more upright, being that i think my main problem is weak quads/poor leg drive/relatively strong back/pc.
-pause squats?
-front squats? - already doing these
-bottom up/pin squats?
-direct quad work?? bearing in mind im just coming back from quad tendonitis from overdoing quad work.

any other ideas as to why i may be tipping forwards and what i could do to fix it? suggestions would be much appreciated as it's driving me crazy!

paused squats are good. or just lighter squats done many times with a lot of intention about leading with your chest. grease the proper groove.

yea actually i probably skipped over actually doing a lot of quality reps with light weight, usually i'll only do like one warm up sets after snatching/cleaning as i feel ready to go, but then i'm missing actually getting good reps in doh.

What about heavy overhead squats, full ROM?

Like you said there's 2 different theories on it. 1) Quads aren't strong enough, allowing the relatively stronger PC to compensate via a goodmorning movement or 2)hamstrings are not strong enough, cant hold back angle, give up and allow hips to shoot up with the squat being completed by the quads. Which of these is true? Maybe neither.

The squat is a full body movement. If some part of the movement is affected by a weak point in your physique or strength distribution then you should get stronger there, wherever there is doesn't matter, only that you're squatting correctly at a given weight and progressing up from there while maintaining correct form. It could be anything, upper back, abs, erectors, who knows. Maybe a bit from column A and a bit from column B, ..., and a bit from Z. You nailed the causality:  "however since i can sit rock bottom in a narrow grip overhead squat and only lose my upright torso on the way up suggests it's not my problem." - this rules out mobility and suggests a strength weakness. When the weight is lighter all of the muscles in your body are more than capable of lifting the weight correctly. As you add more weight, the leverages of the lift change and the demands on the various muscles also change (not necessarily proportionally!) which places more of a burden on some muscles to compensate for a weakness in others, hence departing from textbook form.

My favourite theory is that form has a strength component to it, if you are strong enough to maintain good position throughout the movement of a backsquat in lighter weights but can't do it as it gets heavier, it means at a certain point the weight overwhelms that weakpoint. Identifying where that occurs and grooving the movement just below that weight will allow you to overcome that weakness and improve your form beyond that weight.

If I was going to fix someone's GM squat .. i'd have them work up to a heavyish single, then drop down and do volume at just below their form breakdown weight, working to increase the weight steadily over time but being patient before adding weight. Maybe master it for volume (say 6x6) before incrementing and repeating the process. What i wouldn't do is do a "normal" squat workout and then do technique work with lighter weight -- at that point fatigue has already set in and you're going to have bad form even with lighter weight.

Like you said there's 2 different theories on it. 1) Quads aren't strong enough, allowing the relatively stronger PC to compensate via a goodmorning movement or 2)hamstrings are not strong enough, cant hold back angle, give up and allow hips to shoot up with the squat being completed by the quads. Which of these is true? Maybe neither.

The squat is a full body movement. If some part of the movement is affected by a weak point in your physique or strength distribution then you should get stronger there, wherever there is doesn't matter, only that you're squatting correctly at a given weight and progressing up from there while maintaining correct form. It could be anything, upper back, abs, erectors, who knows. Maybe a bit from column A and a bit from column B, ..., and a bit from Z. You nailed the causality:  "however since i can sit rock bottom in a narrow grip overhead squat and only lose my upright torso on the way up suggests it's not my problem." - this rules out mobility and suggests a strength weakness. When the weight is lighter all of the muscles in your body are more than capable of lifting the weight correctly. As you add more weight, the leverages of the lift change and the demands on the various muscles also change (not necessarily proportionally!) which places more of a burden on some muscles to compensate for a weakness in others, hence departing from textbook form.

My favourite theory is that form has a strength component to it, if you are strong enough to maintain good position throughout the movement of a backsquat in lighter weights but can't do it as it gets heavier, it means at a certain point the weight overwhelms that weakpoint. Identifying where that occurs and grooving the movement just below that weight will allow you to overcome that weakness and improve your form beyond that weight.

If I was going to fix someone's GM squat .. i'd have them work up to a heavyish single, then drop down and do volume at just below their form breakdown weight, working to increase the weight steadily over time but being patient before adding weight. Maybe master it for volume (say 6x6) before incrementing and repeating the process. What i wouldn't do is do a "normal" squat workout and then do technique work with lighter weight -- at that point fatigue has already set in and you're going to have bad form even with lighter weight.

I still don't realise the hamstring argument, perhaps this is plausible though despite my strong 'pc lifts' i guess i could be doing them all back no hams. Agree - it definitely occurs when it starts to get hard. Although I struggle to come to terms with the fact that I am simply THAT WEAK that i can't squat 80-90kg for a single with an upright torso, it's soul destroying after being at 140kg x 5 this time last year! I guess i need to video some reps with different weights and see when it starts to happen, i agree i feel more volume would be good for me - coach has programmed 5 x 3s though so i'll speak with him i guess. I think even just more 'technique' work in warm up sets would be good though - plus i do snatch balances etc before squatting so i should focus on staying upright in those. maybe my form deteriorates so bad because i am just tired from ~15 sets of oly lifts...still need to get around that though.

you are not strong enough for the weight you are using.

highbar near max reps always start to fail with the caving of the torso assuming you have enough explosiveness to even take it from the bottom to the 1/4 depth on the way up.
when you get stronger, the explosiveness from the hole will cut the time of the concentric. by the time your back is starting to cave in, the rep is almost done.

eat more, sleep more. add more weight. good job! 

The weird thing is, it happens far away from failure. For example my work set is 100kg, i'd still be falling forwards with 80kg on my first rep - so frustrating. Sort of leans towards suggest i've made a bad motor pattern as well as being weak in the areas needed to maintain a good one. But yeah, i guess ultimately i need to get back down to weights i can maintain good form with which is depressingly low at the moment and then build up from there without letting form deteriorate!

^ From the video above I'm quite certain your problem starts at the descent. If you hold a ruler or even your finger to create a straight bar path you can see that you get off center as you descend so it's not even a weakness issue. On the way up, your body is simply recovering or straightening itself.

I'm on board with paused squats to remedy the squat. You can take your time and hit all your cues until it becomes automatic. I'd film from the same angle and just use bar path as a reference.

Edit: scratch 2nd paragraph, your hips don't go any further back on second look. I do think the width of your stance plays a role here.

Quote from: undoubtable on April 09, 2016, 02:52:43 pm

^ From the video above I'm quite certain your problem starts at the descent. If you hold a ruler or even your finger to create a straight bar path you can see that you get off center as you descend so it's not even a weakness issue. On the way up, your body is simply recovering or straightening itself.

I'm on board with paused squats to remedy the squat. You can take your time and hit all your cues until it becomes automatic. I'd film from the same angle and just use bar path as a reference.

Edit: scratch 2nd paragraph, your hips don't go any further back on second look. I do think the width of your stance plays a role here.

hm, i actually switched to a more knee forward first after having problems with hip impingement and mobility sitting back - since i used to squat low bar to paralell which obviously doesn't work for oly lifting. Really i wanna initiate down with both first, i feel though that i'm focusing way too much on pushing knees out too early and your right - wide stance exacerbates this. I am going to dial it in a bit as i went OTT with it - but i can't go too narrow as my snatch/clean receives are really where i want to be strong and they need to be reasonably wide.

i'll try the pause squats and see how they go. thanks for help everyone!!

one more thought - could core strength be an issue here?

OTT - out to town?

With a wider stance I think it's very important to have very mobile and flexible ankles, hip flexors, and adductors. You need that inward/ outward rotation when deacending/ ascending to maintain a vertical torso. That should allow you to bring your hips back and down vertically without leaning forward.

I think it's difficult to assess how much your core factors in from this video. I would cue yourself to stay tight going down.

I really dont agree with everyone who is telling you to do paused squats as a remedy. I've done paused squat reps in every warmup set (alternating reps) for the last 12 months.. i can nevertheless goodmorning those paused reps no problem lol. It's not going to stop you from doing that per se. But it may help with nailing the descent, ascent can still be goodmorninged though.

One thing you might want to explore is bodybuilding for assistance work to fix weak points. Don't be dismissive, russian and chinese olympic lifters use BB assistance work regularly. I found doing cable rows helped with keeping my chest position out of the bottom position of a squat, previously it would drop. Never thought doing something as simple as a cable row would help with my squat but it did. Which reinforces my thought that it doesn't necessarily have to be the quads or hams that are the culprit (they might still be weak though).