Author Topic: Dead stop movements as primary strength moves???  (Read 4251 times)

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mj

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Dead stop movements as primary strength moves???
« on: July 04, 2011, 12:37:26 am »
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Talking anderson squats, pin squats, pause squats, floor presses, oh press off pins etc. Lifts where the weight is moved from dead stop. Would it be beneficial to use these as main strength lifts? Pro/ con?

The way I see it is that floor pulls are already like this and nobody questions their benefit as primary strength movements. Why would a pin squat not be the same? Sure you'd move less plates than a full squat but only because its mechanically less favourable. Does that mean you're recruiting less muscle or shortchanging your development...... dunno?

I appreciate you wouldn't be training the stretch shorten reflex under load. Whether this matters when you train same through plyos I don't know.

If nothing else a dead stop lift off pins would seem an honest test of strength to me. You can't cheat or bounce. What does everyone else think?




steven-miller

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Re: Dead stop movements as primary strength moves???
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2011, 07:19:07 am »
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Talking anderson squats, pin squats, pause squats, floor presses, oh press off pins etc. Lifts where the weight is moved from dead stop. Would it be beneficial to use these as main strength lifts? Pro/ con?

The way I see it is that floor pulls are already like this and nobody questions their benefit as primary strength movements. Why would a pin squat not be the same? Sure you'd move less plates than a full squat but only because its mechanically less favourable. Does that mean you're recruiting less muscle or shortchanging your development...... dunno?

I appreciate you wouldn't be training the stretch shorten reflex under load. Whether this matters when you train same through plyos I don't know.

If nothing else a dead stop lift off pins would seem an honest test of strength to me. You can't cheat or bounce. What does everyone else think?

I think you could train strength with dead stop movements exclusively, but I think you would miss out on a lot that way and I don't know why exactly one would limit himself to that. Not only would you exclude the stretch reflex and its training under load that way, as you mentioned, but by using less weight you are also lessening the eccentric and concentric work that is being done per rep. The stretch reflex in an exercise like the squat allows you to use more weight than you would be able to without it because it helps manage the mechanically least advantaged position (below parallel) and therefore allowing you to train strength better eccentrically and concentrically over a big ROM. So for GPP and strength gain purposes this method beats exercises (or at least squats) from a dead stop.
A different thing would be the training of a sticking point (in strength sports) or a specific area in the ROM to benefit the transmutation of weight-room strength to on-the-field performance. Pin squats might be valuable here but I am not sure if they are better or worse than their counterparts with a bounce in that specific ROM. I would imagine that the variant with pins is safer and more conveniant, while the variant without again allows more weight and might therefore be more beneficial. But I don't know exactly. Maybe someone experimented with it.

Daballa100

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Re: Dead stop movements as primary strength moves???
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2011, 08:48:44 am »
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I agree with Steven.  I would incorporate some pause stuff only if I had a problem in getting out of the hole.  I did some stuff with paused lifts back when I was box squatting a lot.  You'll be really strong out of the hole, but imo your squat won't improve very fast if your weakness isn't coming out of the hole.  Paused lifts imo have a place in training, but regular lifts should be priority most of the time. 

mj

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Re: Dead stop movements as primary strength moves???
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2011, 06:37:29 pm »
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cool. ps I'm not suggesting its a good idea or doing it myself. Just debating it.

I know Adarqui rates them. Hope he contributes  :D

swans05

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Re: Dead stop movements as primary strength moves???
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2011, 07:11:39 pm »
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i like them but i wouldn't go exclusive with them, actually using some partial pin bench presses in my training now...they do overload the nervous system a great deal though so you can't go silly on them

it depends if you need them, if your quick but weak then they would be good for you but if you're strong and slow then you're only strengthening something that is already strong while your weakness gets weaker

mj

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Re: Dead stop movements as primary strength moves???
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 12:31:40 am »
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i like them but i wouldn't go exclusive with them, actually using some partial pin bench presses in my training now...they do overload the nervous system a great deal though so you can't go silly on them

it depends if you need them, if your quick but weak then they would be good for you but if you're strong and slow then you're only strengthening something that is already strong while your weakness gets weaker

Hope they work for you. I'm a bit confused though. I would have though that if you're strong but slow they're ideal because they'll emphasise RFD more than outright strength and hypertrophy. If you are fast and weak the basic strength moves, including eccentrics would be better yeah?

Or am I trippin  :huh: