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is bragging about box jump numbers stupid?

no, it's awesome
4 (13.8%)
yes, it's stupid as hell
25 (86.2%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES  (Read 31557 times)

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Cloud3205

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2010, 01:38:44 am »
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So was Louie receptive to your ideas?  I am sure there are few in the United States that are stronger than those WSB guys on the three major lifts, but as far as VJ goes, I mean they are too massive to even move all that weight to be among the best leapers.

LanceSTS

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2010, 10:18:09 am »
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So was Louie receptive to your ideas?  I am sure there are few in the United States that are stronger than those WSB guys on the three major lifts, but as far as VJ goes, I mean they are too massive to even move all that weight to be among the best leapers.

  My "ideas" were just valid points that he didnt disagree with, the thing that alot of people misunderstand about Louie is he doesnt care about vertical jump nearly as much as alot of us do, if you gave him a choice of increasing someones svj by 10 inches or increasing their box squat 50lbs, hed take the box squat no question. 

  Alot of those guys have too much bodyfat to optimize jumping, but the main difference is they dont really train for jumping at all, all of the explosive and dynamic exercises are done to improve rfd in the LIFTS, not a vertical jump.  Powerlifting is NOT jump training, just like jump training is not powerlifting.
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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2010, 10:23:22 am »
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So was Louie receptive to your ideas?  I am sure there are few in the United States that are stronger than those WSB guys on the three major lifts, but as far as VJ goes, I mean they are too massive to even move all that weight to be among the best leapers.

  My "ideas" were just valid points that he didnt disagree with, the thing that alot of people misunderstand about Louie is he doesnt care about vertical jump nearly as much as alot of us do, if you gave him a choice of increasing someones svj by 10 inches or increasing their box squat 50lbs, hed take the box squat no question. 

  Alot of those guys have too much bodyfat to optimize jumping, but the main difference is they dont really train for jumping at all, all of the explosive and dynamic exercises are done to improve rfd in the LIFTS, not a vertical jump.  Powerlifting is NOT jump training, just like jump training is not powerlifting.

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Raptor

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2010, 10:52:51 am »
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Would you say he'd choose the box squat because he doesn't know HOW to increase one's VJ, or because he's a strength addict, or both? (and please, no politically correct things like "well he knows how (because I talk with him and he's my buddy) but he doesn't want to etc). HONESTY! (I shouldn't worry about that though, you've always been honest so... :P)
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2010, 01:38:17 pm »
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 IN MY OPIONION, he loves box squats because a). He helped popularize the exercise, and b). they carryover very well to the canvas suited squat that he and his lifters use in competition.   A canvas suit "catches" the lifter on the decent, much like a box, the ipf poly suits "rebound" and stretch, hence the unpopularity of box squatting among those lifters.  

  I asked him if he were training an athlete who was a basketball player, and their main goal was to increase vertical jumping, what squatting means would he use.  He said he would use a high box squat, with the box set at a little above a half squat, narrow stance, similar to the jumping position.  This led me to ask him if he felt the stretch reflex was being detrained in a way from doing so.  He responded that he had done extensive testing, and the stretch reflex could be maintained for several seconds in experienced lifters.  The problem with this is the stretch reflex starts to dissapate immediately when the lifter hits the box, the longer the pause the greater the dissipation.  

I like box squats COMBINED with free squats in a lot of cases, the box squat aids tremedously in different circumstances like teaching the squat, coming out of a dead start like a sprinter coming out of the blocks, and allowing a greater load when put in a higher position in the range of motion with a concrete indicator of depth.  In squatting for jumping improvement, IN MY OPINION, the amortization phase, the point in the movement where the bar goes from downward motion to upward, is the single most important part of the lift.  I have seen and strongly believe that the athletes who can turn the lift around the fastest will always have the best carryover to jumping.  It is more about how quickly you can get to top speed at that particular point in the lift, than the overall speed attained during the movement.  
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 01:40:57 pm by LanceSTS »
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LBSS

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2010, 01:44:44 pm »
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 In squatting for jumping improvement, IN MY OPINION, the amortization phase, the point in the movement where the bar goes from downward motion to upward, is the single most important part of the lift.  I have seen and strongly believe that the athletes who can turn the lift around the fastest will always have the best carryover to jumping.  It is more about how quickly you can get to top speed at that particular point in the lift, than the overall speed attained during the movement.  

Interesting point and I think adarq has said this before in reference to REA squatting and jump squatting. I'm pretty sure I suck at this part of the movement. Any cues/tips on improving it?
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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LanceSTS

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2010, 01:51:21 pm »
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 The thing that has helped the most with that part of the movement is fully understanding that you are trying to put 100% of you power into that particular point in the r.o.m. and I use a cue of imagining a nail sticking up under you but when you get to the bottom of the squat.  If you visualize as soon as you hit the bottom, a nail sticks you and you "react" it gives an extra incentive mentally and helps that point in the lift be more ballistic.  You have to anticipate the bottom of the lift, you cant "feel" for it like alot of athletes do when squatting, the goal is to put as much speed and power into that few inches of the lift as you can muster up.  The more you practice it the better you get and I have seen tons of squat pr's after implementing this technique, it carries over to max strength very well also.
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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2010, 01:59:11 pm »
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I'd rather focus on bodybuilding to jump high than powerlifting

Box Squats are much better for pussies like me  ;). It's probably a more dangerous exercise, but for some reason I feel safer doing it. I'd rather do free squats though.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 02:02:06 pm by JCsBck »
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Raptor

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2010, 02:05:55 pm »
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Well I think there are two important reasons why one should squat for a higher VJ:

1) To build muscle that will generate tension for greater power. To do this, the best way is probably a deep squat and coupling phase time, specificity and things like these aren't that important.

2) To overload a muscle with "some weight" in a specific manner to the jump itself with a smaller ROM, more attention being paid at the coupling time and joint angles.

Now, I don't know if 2) is needed. It's probably needed just because the plyos damage the body so much if they are done endlessly, so then the 2) part is probably a good compromise. Otherwise, plyos are the way to go in my opinion.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2010, 02:14:54 pm »
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 Right, a gpp type squat to prepare the body for the more intensive demands of the more sport specific spp squat/reactive/jump type movements later on.  A full squat (or as full as one can safely go with good technique) is extremely beneficial for not only jumping but all the other movements that will go along with sport.  Using both gpp and spp methods will always trump using only one or the other.


  OH, AND BOX JUMPS ARE A TERRIBLE WAY TO TEST JUMPING ABILITY.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 02:18:45 pm by LanceSTS »
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Raptor

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2010, 05:45:18 pm »
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Would it make sense to you if I were to squat 2 times per week and one time go with full squats and the other go with heavier partials for more specificity, like half squats or 1/4 squats?
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2010, 07:56:49 pm »
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 Makes perfect sense, thats what I do with most athletes most of the time. 
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adarqui

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2010, 03:45:49 am »
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 In squatting for jumping improvement, IN MY OPINION, the amortization phase, the point in the movement where the bar goes from downward motion to upward, is the single most important part of the lift.  I have seen and strongly believe that the athletes who can turn the lift around the fastest will always have the best carryover to jumping.  It is more about how quickly you can get to top speed at that particular point in the lift, than the overall speed attained during the movement.  

Interesting point and I think adarq has said this before in reference to REA squatting and jump squatting. I'm pretty sure I suck at this part of the movement. Any cues/tips on improving it?

yup, that's why I prescribe REA squatting, to aid in the transition.. that's why I also always say to focus on the transition as much as possible, during squatting.

the most important thing definitely is mental, always cueing yourself and making sure to really transition as explosively as possible, in all squat reps.. so lance's nail cue is great etc.

other than that, REA squats/depth jumps/depth drops & jump squats help.

I've found REA squats to be most effective in terms of carry over to the squat.. depth jumps/depth drops definitely can have carry over also, even more so if you're using intense box heights, that also improves the transition during ballistic movements, greater force produced during the "coupling phase", that iso between eccentric and concentric.

pc

adarqui

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2010, 03:48:10 am »
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Right, a gpp type squat to prepare the body for the more intensive demands of the more sport specific spp squat/reactive/jump type movements later on.

this


Quote
 A full squat (or as full as one can safely go with good technique) is extremely beneficial for not only jumping but all the other movements that will go along with sport.  Using both gpp and spp methods will always trump using only one or the other.

this too


Quote
  OH, AND BOX JUMPS ARE A TERRIBLE WAY TO TEST JUMPING ABILITY.

oh, and this.

adarqui

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Re: BOX JUMPS ARE STUPID - STOP BRAGGING AND DO A REAL VERT, BITCHES
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2010, 03:49:45 am »
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btw who the hell voted for box jumps are awesome, u WiLL paY!#!@!$

jk