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Quote from: steven-miller on June 18, 2012, 07:08:12 pm

Quote from: seifullaah73 on June 18, 2012, 05:43:39 pm

I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.

There are maybe 5 people on this forum that get close to this number.

Im gonna get there one day 

YOU are not the person to worry about.

How often do you squat?

Good. You can make good progress movement efficiency-wise by squatting very often. I squatted every day for a while and really got my squat up because I became so efficient at it, and then, once you're very efficient, you can really start to adapt muscularily (not just neurally) to that load since you're using a ton of weight at that point.

Obviously, just a way you can go, I'm not saying "go for it" but this is the way I got my squat up to 140x5. Sure, once I stopped squatting frequently it got down but I have a feeling that if I were to continue with that high frequency it would've been great. You can't help but adapt muscularily too considering you're moving a heavier weight so often.

Bumping this thread because I have been wondering what's a good goal for a front squat if you're not a natural backsquatter. If 2bw olympic backsquat is a good goal for athletic purposes, what's a good goal for FS? 1.8?

My reasoning for 1.8 is that i've read that a good olympic lifter should be able to front squat 90% of his best HBBS, so 90% of 2bw is 1.8bw. For an 80kg/176lb athlete that would require a FS of 144kg or just shy of 320lb.

On the other hand, elite olympic lifters are very efficient so perhaps 2bw for ordinary mortals would translate to a FS of around 85% of HBBS so it would be a FS of 1.7bw. So the same athlete as before would require 'only' a front squat shy of ~300lb. Is this reasonable?

Just my conjectures of course, would be interested in hearing others opinions

IT DEPENDS. christ.

I love the ratios.

Here is my take (and I may be the source of the 2.5xbw squat making you slow)

2xBW is attainable by every male.  Now it may come easy for some and not so easy for others.  But everyone can do it.  The efforts in reaching this level should not interfere with your standard sport/jump training. 

2.5xbw is much harder to get too but can be done by some without interfering with your goals (why are we squatting in the first place)

Over 2.5xbw requires too much strength training specialization.  If this is your goal then fine.  I have squatted slightly over 3xbw and let me tell you it took years of dedicated strength training.  The effort required to do this, IMO, requires you to spend too much time away from your goal (jumping and sport right).  In other words to reach this goal you have become a strength athlete (PLer or OLYer) and are no longer an athlete (bball, jump, etc...). 

Dave tate said as much in his article today

If an OLineman can squat 600 (~2xBW) will increasing his squat to 700 improve his performance or should all the special exercise (time, energy, recovery ability) required to get there be better spent learning the play book, recognizing defenses, improving footwork and blocking technique?

In my experience our best jumpers squatted in the 2-2.5 bw area.  Our best jumper ever 42" squatted 2.5xbw.  He was really reactive.  like a pogo stick.  If this is you then the 2.5bw squat may be the prescription.  If not then 2xbw may be the right fit.  At over 2.5xbw we see less carry over.  Why?  IMO it takes too much specialization.  At that point you are a squatter and not a jumper.

So your squat should be on a continual upward path but it should compliment your goal, not be your ultimate goal (if you are an athlete)

how do you get there?

I like the starting strength model -> texas method (although not the GOMAD approach)

day 1
squat 3x5
Press 3x5
Clean/jump squat 5x3

Day 2
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
DL 1x5

then move to texas method...  I'll just show the squat

Day 1
Squat 5x5 using 90% of previous Fridays 1rm

Day 3
Squat 2x5 using 80% of mondays load

Day 5
Squat 1x5rm

Now monday is the training stimulus day, wed is active rest, friday is testing. 

If friday is not increasing you modify mondays workout. 

2 options:

If your 5rm stalls and you cannot  complete all 5x5 monday then you need to decrease mondays volume.  Maybe use same weight and do 3x5 or 6x3.

If your 5rm stalls and you are completing mondays 5x5 then monday is not hard enough.  Go heavier on monday and do 5x5 or you can go even heavier and do 6x3, etc...  you get the idea, make Mondays squat session suck even more. 

I like the approach because we are modifying the weights around your sport practice and not the other way around because we are athletes first and foremost.  That is why most of us are here.  Not for PLing but for jump and sport.

the Texas method should not interfere too much with your sport training as there is only really 1 shitty workout in the week: monday.

Now if you want to peak for testing your jump or the upcoming season it is also simple to modify: replace fridays 1x5rm with a DE day like so:

Day 1
Squat 5x5 using 90% of previous Fridays 1rm
Low-mod jumps

Day 3
Squat 2x5 using 80% of mondays load
Low-mod jumps

Day 5
Squat 50-70% x 8-10 x 2-3
Plus high intensity jumping

Then for a more advanced sport program add in the 1x5rm and replace 5x5 with DE method  Like:

Day 1
Squat 50-70% x 8-10 x 2-3
Hi int jumps

Day 3
Squat 2x5 using 80% of mondays load
Low- jumps

Day 5
Squat 1 x 5rm
Plus mod intensity jumping

Whew!

In long term planning I think this should make up the first 2-3 years.  Then when it stalls and the modifications stop working I would move more towards the russian style programming.

this should get people thinking a bit

if you are 200lbs then 3xbw is 600.  how many 600lb squatters are out there.  People on boards make reaching those levels seem easy.  Getting to 3xbw is tough.  I have had surgeries trying to get to that level.  If you are an athlete your surgeries should come from your sport and not the weight room.

Imagine how much of a toll squatting 570 for 3x3 would take on the body.  how much of your recovery ability would it sapp.  what toll would it take on the joints: hips and knees.  now all that recovery ability that should be spent recovering from practice is now spend adapting to the squat.  Also could you squat 570x3x3 and still play ball later that day.  Still go to practice and give it 100%  No way in hell.  Even if you did how much worse would your joints feel.  All that sprinting and landing in addition to that brutal squat workout.

Something has to give.  IMO when training an athlete I would rather have them play and practice over squatting big.  Afterall the sport is the goal, not the squat (unless PLing)