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Bench will target your chest better while dips target your arms better IMO.  Both are easily progress trackable, just note the weight progression.  Dips are completely safe obviously, bench press can only be dangerous if obviously you go too heavy and you don't have a spotter. 

I personally like dips a whole lot better, but idk, bench press has the best reputation for upper body strength.  Doesn't mean it's right, but yeah.  I bench press though, cuz my gym doesnt have those belt things to do weighted dips or whatever.

I should have clarified a little more Lance. I was reading "the ultimate split" and saw the improvement the dude made while only doing 4 strength training movements. I liked it because of its simplicity and I am a creature of habit. Strength training just feels weird without squats.

His upper body movements were the bench and the chinup.

My biggest question is just doing bench presses and chinup 2-3 times a week as a novice healthy for the shoulders and for maximum upper body strength? (I bench 105 lbs, can do 11 full range chinups, and 9 dips)

This is what I wanted to do 2-3 days of

Back Squat
Pressing exercise (dip, bench, or press) anything i can be constitent with.
Chinup (weighted once I get to 20)

I should have clarified a little more Lance. I was reading "the ultimate split" and saw the improvement the dude made while only doing 4 strength training movements. I liked it because of its simplicity and I am a creature of habit. Strength training just feels weird without squats.

His upper body movements were the bench and the chinup.

My biggest question is just doing bench presses and chinup 2-3 times a week as a novice healthy for the shoulders and for maximum upper body strength? (I bench 105 lbs, can do 11 full range chinups, and 9 dips)

This is what I wanted to do 2-3 days of

Back Squat
Pressing exercise (dip, bench, or press) anything i can be constitent with.
Chinup (weighted once I get to 20)

right, for your pressing exercise you could substitute standing press or push press, that would keep shoulders healthy and give you a better carryover to your sport of bball.

ehh i dont really know if overhead press is better than bench press for shoulders Lance, have read and heard about a lot of people not recommended over head press because of potential shoulder problems. Still a bench press with a crazy wide grip and some flaring elbows is bound to cause problems real fast

internal and external rotations can help some, along with a few other prehab movements

Anyone have any good kind of shoulder/upper body prehab routine or anything? Prob should start including it in my routine as dont do much besides some upper body stretches and back foam roll.

well obviously you are a big proponent of shoulder pressing

Na was not referring particularly to what Defranco has written(although used to follow him big time so maybe this is where it came from), more on the lines of what James Smith has said on the matter. But a lot of his reasons are because of the potential damage the shoulders take in football. Ill read around some more, although I don't particularly like christian thibadeau and havent read much glenn pendlay. I do know Wendler is a fan of over head pressing, so obvsously IMO he knows a thing or to about lifting.

what ratio do you include back to chest to shoulders?



Two pretty good posts on the matter by James Smith

"Evan, despite the novel characteristics of the 'how much do you bench' as a measure of the US high school male's virility, presses of all variants are popular world wide amongst the globe's elite in a variety of disciplines.

From the standpoint of dynamic correspondence the supine bench press is far superior to the overhead/military press as there is no sport other than weightlifting and strongman that requires athletes to overcome large loads directly overhead and support them in that position; and in reality, post the early 1970s, weightlifting doesn't even include the strict overhead press in competition.

Alternatively, there are a multitude of disciplines that require the athlete to overcome loads, via arm extension in the plane of the scapula. Granted, the bench press is performed supine; however, it must be in order to yield great muscle tetanus.

Due to the supine position and being braced posteriorly, the bench press is not specific to any athlete other than a powerlifter; however, it is generally specific to a myriad more athletes than the overhead press with respect to the direction in which the resistance must be overcome relative to the torso.

The most specific form of pressing in the plane of the scapula, for a multitude of athletes, is when an athlete in the standing/athletic position is able to explode out ballistically, or slower and more tonically, against a load on a pendulum apparatus. The USSR and former GDR popularized such forms of exercise as illustrations can readily be found in much of the literature published by overseas authors.

I have 'rigged' various contraptions with heavy medicine balls in a sack suspended from the top of a power rack.

Perhaps most important to the comparison of the bench and overhead press, the bench press is measurably more orthopedically sound than the overhead press. The IOC and the IWF were wise enough to eliminate the overhead press from competition over 30 years ago for safety reasons as well as subjectivity in judging. Unfortunate that this decision has not influenced more coaches of other athletes."


"
Thanks Alex. I must note, however, that it was not my idea to post the exchange between Coach B and myself.

Any means presents structural stress. Some, however, present greater stress then others when we scrutinize what our skeleton and musculo-tendonous apparatus was designed to do from a mechanical-structural standpoint.

The shoulder (glenohumeral) joint is designed for mobility, not stability. As it stands, any overhead lifting with heavy loads requires great stability about the shoulder joint, shoulder girdle, trunk, etc. As a result, over lifting is 1. the greatest strengthener of the shoulders, and 2. the highest training risk with respect to compromising the structural integrity of the joint.

The very action of complete shoulder flexion yields impingement via the humeral head being jammed into/against the acromin.

Add to that external rotation and abduction such as the overhead position in the snatch and you place the shoulder in its most compromised position.

Granted, certain skeletons are at less risk then others with respect to overhead lifting due to differently formed acromins.

the fact remains, however, that repeated overhead lifting with heavy loads simply presents a higher structural risk to the joint compared to pressing in the plane of the scapula and is, therfore, not justified in the training of athletes who must not overcome large loads overhead.

Mind you that this will be debated ad nauseam by proponents of overhead lifting. "

different opinions I guess, obviously all guys mentioned have a ton of experience and knowledge. I personally like a lot of what Smith says as I have met him and talked with him various times, and hes know his shit big time. guy is real smart and truly brings that "attention to detail" . Not to mention anyone that has made it through hell week(twice and been iron man i think) is good to go in my book but thats a different story.

Still encourage anyone to try either way out for themselves and go from there, one would be a fool to except anything as straight gospel

One part about defrancos piece I like is train back like body builder, at least to general sports population, too many people bench bench bench and neglect back work.

Quote from: LanceSTS on March 06, 2011, 01:14:00 am

Quote from: Petey0109 on March 06, 2011, 12:30:13 am

Ok so I have heard a bunch of crap about the bench press and it wrecking shoulders, etc.
My goals are to have a stronger upperbody without injuring anything. I am not too worried about numbers.

What would be better? Weighted Dips vs. Bench

I am looking for a time efficient, progress easily trackable, safe, and best bang for my buck.

I like limiting the number of exercises i use for the simplicity and focus it brings to training, so the one with the biggest bank for my buck is important.

Also I am a basketball player, so I probably won't be tested on the bench, so that is something not to worry about?

Standing overhead press or push press will give you by far the best carryover to performance with the added benefit of healthier shoulders.  Bench press will go up along with your ohp or pp so you can kill two birds with one stone.  Adding dips as an assistance exercise to the press to get some extra chest and tricep work is good as well if your workout permits.

this is total horseshit. you should do weighted dips for 3-5 reps total, superslow (e.g. 4s eccentric, 2s pause, 6s concentric). bench, ohp, db bench, all that shit will just waste your time. pretty much only superslow, very heavy weighted dips are the way to go.

that, and ATG squats.

rofl