Author Topic: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair  (Read 11676 times)

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Gary

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Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« on: June 28, 2011, 10:32:22 am »
-2
Kelly Baggett:

Quote
Manufactured Strength Vs Natural Strength

Before I get into it I'd like to point out that no supplemental training method is perfect and has a perfect transfer to sport. The practice of adding strength and size thru weight training in an attempt to apply the benefits of that strength and size to a sport is effective but it won't ever be perfect. You're basically manufacturing something that wasn't there to begin with - You're allowing your body to adapt to one stimulus and then applying those adaptations to another area. It really is cheating in a way. The only thing that isn't cheating would be actually playing the sport and letting your body adapt naturally. However, we know there are limits to that. But this is one reason why people that have "natural" strength, size, and power will generally have a "functional" strength advantage over those who have to manufacture it. Reggie White, Lawrence Taylor, and Mike Tyson rarely if ever lifted a weight. Compare them to muscled up guys like Frank Bruno, Tony Mandarich, and Vernon Gholston. Manufacturing size and strength isn't perfect regardless of how you acquire it, but it beats the alternative and can allow you to compete at a level you wouldn't have.

I'm not the first to bring this up, but I still don't see much distinction between barbell use and steroid use.

I know that steroids are currently considered cheating and that they're illegal, but neither makes much sense. Steroids help you get stronger, but so do barbells. Steroid use can result in long-term health complications, but again so can barbells as can sports in general, especially contact sports like boxing and American football.

Again, I know that steroids are against the rules. I just don't think it makes any sort of sense. It's like drug prohibition in general. Alcohol is more destructive than just about any other drug that you go to prison for possessing, yet it's perfectly legal; alcohol destroys health, induces aggression, impairs judgment (and leads to horrible life-wrecking outcomes), yet we can buy it and consume as much of it as we want...but can't smoke weed or snort cocaine because they're "bad" for us...

I digress, but I hope the digression underscores the point.

In my own case, I've more than doubled my strength levels from where they were in my early twenties, at least by a couple of measures. I'm far more athletic than I was 15 years ago when I was in my "prime" because of barbell use, particularly the almighty barbell back squat. I've gone from 130 lbs to 180 lbs by taking my unequipped full squat from ~150 to ~350. I've sort of wrecked my knees in the pursuit of squat strength, but I can still do every physical activity better than my 18-20-year-old self could; my knees just hurt a lot more when I do it.

There are those who would argue that I used my "natural" or inherent chemistry in building up my strength. But the fact is I used the assistance of a very unnatural artifact of industrial civilization--the rotating collar barbell--to alter the structure and functioning of my body. I built strength that did not come naturally by "unnatural" means. In the past only natural athletes, those who were big, strong and fast just because that's how they were, had a chance of competing at any meaningful level. Barbell training changed that and gave the naturally small, weak and slow a way to make themselves bigger, stronger and faster than they would have been otherwise, even with diligent participation in their sport. Serious athletes nowadays go outside their sport to acquire strength with barbells (and with steroids) and then apply that new strength in their sport. 

I would not have become so much bigger, stronger and faster just by running, swinging from trees and lifting rocks. It took very detailed programming of the use of man-made objects to get me where I am. The man-made objects in my case were the barbell, weight plates and a squat rack. Would it have really been so bad if I added chemical supplementation to that to take me even further?

Our culture is one steeped in myths about the wickedness of drugs (except alcohol, at least these days). It's not unlike the American South where there are cultural fears that black men are ticking white-women-rape bombs. Steroids are like the lurking Negroes of the world of S&C lily white womanhood in the Old South. Those who would protect the virtue of the S&C world gotta string up them damn steroids every chance they get.

Also, there's this pride in building strength "naturally" that makes me chuckle. I'm a guy who cheered when he got his first 135-lb back squat because that was a hug accomplishment to me when I was a 120-lb adult. I built my strength "naturally" up to a 365-lb squat recently (using loose knee wraps; I'm getting old). But how "natural" was that strength really? "Natural" strength would be the 200-lb 15-year-old who squats 315 deep for a few reps the first time he walks into a gym (I believe Andy Bolton worked up to 405 his first time under the bar).

I'm not writing this to convince anyone. My mind's made up and I'm sure yours is too. I just know that while I acknowledge that steroid-use is cheating under almost all current rules (except untested powerlifting feds), I think that policy is the outcome of hysteria and something like superstition.

Thanks for reading.
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

Raptor

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2011, 11:06:40 am »
-1
If you were standing next to me, I swear I would kiss you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Just because random person A and random person B came in to say "roids are illegal, I worked my butt out to be the best bodybuilder/athlete/powerlifter etc etc etc with barbells, that's the alpha way" and shit like this doesn't make that person GOD that decides what rules there should be applied to YOU. He's just a man like you are, shitting through the same shit hole (thought that would get a better picture of how similar we are).

So why not use roids vs other methods of increasing strength/lowering bodyfat? I see not reason why except health related which, done correctly, shouldn't be that bad. And like you said, same pretty much applies to barbell squats and any other high tension thing done on your body.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LBSS

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Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

undoubtable

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 11:40:00 am »
0
Gary, I'm not going to say that your argument is wrong, but I think the premises for your argument is wrong. I don't feel its justifiable to compare lifting weights to attain unnatural strength to taking steroids to attain the same end. Athletes have to dedicate much of their time and focus to weightlifting to get that strength whereas with steroids they simply inject and play their sport and see their performance improve. I just don't see how its fair to make that argument on this premise. You can't substitute weightlifting with taking steroids just because the strength achieved is unnatural in both cases. It just doesn't make sense.

With that said, I'm not saying that your conclusion is wrong at all. To some degree I do think that the policy is unfair and the result of mass hysteria. But I just don't agree with the argument you're using to get there.
GOALS

Squat 340x3               Power clean 265

BP 225x3                    100m - 11.5

Raptor

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 12:11:33 pm »
-1
Gary, I'm not going to say that your argument is wrong, but I think the premises for your argument is wrong. I don't feel its justifiable to compare lifting weights to attain unnatural strength to taking steroids to attain the same end. Athletes have to dedicate much of their time and focus to weightlifting to get that strength whereas with steroids they simply inject and play their sport and see their performance improve. I just don't see how its fair to make that argument on this premise. You can't substitute weightlifting with taking steroids just because the strength achieved is unnatural in both cases. It just doesn't make sense.

With that said, I'm not saying that your conclusion is wrong at all. To some degree I do think that the policy is unfair and the result of mass hysteria. But I just don't agree with the argument you're using to get there.

You basically said nothing.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

undoubtable

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2011, 12:31:51 pm »
0
Lol I'll be more clear. The topic statement, Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair, is simply wrong. They are not equally unfair because to get stronger by lifting weights you have to take time away from your sport and dedicate it to lifting. If you take steroids, you can play your sport and improve on the skills it demands but you're stronger from the steroids. In essence you're not giving anything up to become stronger. So I'm saying you cannot substitute one for the other to make a legitimate case for why steroids should be legal. All I was trying to say is that this premise for reaching the conclusion, steroids should be legal for anyone to use, is not applicable. You think I didn't say anything substantial because I didn't really voice my opinion. But it is simply as follows:

Should steroids be legalized in sports- Very Debatable

Should athletes take steroids while they are illegal
- Not Debatable, they should all adhere to the rules because they apply to everyone equally. This isn't an argument in my opinion.
GOALS

Squat 340x3               Power clean 265

BP 225x3                    100m - 11.5

Raptor

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2011, 12:44:28 pm »
-2
Well you just demonstrated why we all, as athletes or aspiring athletes, should be allowed to take them. We could focus more on the sport itself and get better at it and not waste time doing stupid repetitions with a barbell. That should be limited to people in that sport - powerlifting, Olympic lifting and so on.

The barbell should be the actual display of sport prowess (with the aid of roids) and not the means to get to that display.

Simply because it's much more inefficient.

If we want to be so "moral" (although I have no idea how that word applies here) we should throw our computers out the window since they are efficient and start working with stone and wood. Do all mathematical calculations on paper. Forget robots, do all work manually. Don't grow food by any means, walk around the planet in search of the proper foods etc etc etc. Endless examples.

It's just a matter of efficiency. Steroids are superior to pretty much anything => the logical way is to use them.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Gary

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2011, 01:48:15 pm »
0
we already had this conversation

http://www.adarq.org/forum/call-em-out/kelly-baggett%27s-use-of-steroids-pro-hormones-hormones-and-other-drugs/

I'm new around here and haven't read every single thread yet. Besides, I'm just bored and want to stir the pot. No one's mind is going to be changed here. I just feel like arguing in circles today.
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

undoubtable

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2011, 02:03:30 pm »
+1
Ok, fair enough but then everyone else would be taking them too and you would be in the same position as you are now relative to everyone in your sport. You would have no option but to resort back to the dreaded barbell to find that extra edge. Say your ultimate goal is a 45" vertical knowing that the human limit is about 50", would you still have the same goal if people started jumping 60". Probably not, you'd say shit if they can jump 60" I know I can hit 50". Its our nature to never be satisfied, so as long as the competitive environment is equal for everyone, what's the difference? If steroids were legal and everyone took them, I'd definitely do the same but what difference would it really make. The people that were better than me before would still be better so nothing at all has changed.

What I really love and care about is the pain and suffering from working as hard as my body and mind can endure (while being smart about it of course). For some reason that suffering just gives me life and excites me more than anything. Then my satisfaction comes when I realize I'm stronger, faster, and more athletic from my training. Even if I take steroids and my performance jumps to another level, I'm still going to train to get the same feeling and to try to get even better. In essence, nothing would change. I really believe in the cliche, "its the journey that matters not the destination".
GOALS

Squat 340x3               Power clean 265

BP 225x3                    100m - 11.5

Gary

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2011, 02:10:28 pm »
0
Well you just demonstrated why we all, as athletes or aspiring athletes, should be allowed to take them. We could focus more on the sport itself and get better at it and not waste time doing stupid repetitions with a barbell. That should be limited to people in that sport - powerlifting, Olympic lifting and so on.

The barbell should be the actual display of sport prowess (with the aid of roids) and not the means to get to that display.

Simply because it's much more inefficient.

If we want to be so "moral" (although I have no idea how that word applies here) we should throw our computers out the window since they are efficient and start working with stone and wood. Do all mathematical calculations on paper. Forget robots, do all work manually. Don't grow food by any means, walk around the planet in search of the proper foods etc etc etc. Endless examples.

It's just a matter of efficiency. Steroids are superior to pretty much anything => the logical way is to use them.

This a really good point. I was reading through all of Kelly's articles again and I was struck by the point about how strength training can impact athletic movement in a bad way. It's a line you have to walk carefully, something I learned the hard way. I'm not a professional athlete or close to it, but I lost a lot of fluidity and "pop" in just a couple of years of making powerlifting my chosen recreational sport. It's also why I get so annoyed at the Rippetards who tell newbs that just squatting will be enough to maintain and enhance balance and agility while the exact opposite is true.

In any case, I can't imagine why we think it makes sense to force athletes to improve baseline strength in the more inefficient way that could negatively impact sports training. Health risks? Ha! These guys sign on knowing that they're at risk for permanent brain and spinal damage and bad knees. Injecting steroids really would be the least of their health worries. This isn't a popular opinion, but there's a lot of mass hysteria that passes for good public policy. Examples: It's okay to own people of African descent and force them to work for below market wages; the violent black market that comes from prohibiting substances that people want to ingest is worth saving a small percentage of the population from wasting away from abusing those substances.
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

LanceSTS

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2011, 02:13:11 pm »
0

   If you are debating whether or not steroids should be legalized, then you have some ground to stand on there, if you are comparing taking steroids to training with weights, its a silly comparison.  You cant compare sticking a needle in your ass to spending years and years busting your ass under a barbell.  Training with barbells is not illegal or against any rules, its an even playing field, but one that takes actual BALLS to do.  The main reason taking steroids is an advantage in the first place is because not everyone is willing to break the rules and cheat, so the ones that do actually have an advantage.  

  The people who get affected by steroids in sports are the ATHLETES, that want to stay clean, but have to compete against cheaters who have a clear advantage in their training.  If they are made legal then you have a level playing field, but many athletes dont want to literally be forced into taking drugs to play their sport and compete in their event, which is what that would entail.  Its easy to look from the outside in like many do and say there is no problem with drugs, but when its your job to compete, and YOU ARE FOLLOWING THE RULES, and you get beat by someone who IS BREAKING THE RULES, then its a different story.

 I dont agree with many of the drug policies regarding recreational drugs and the what Gary said about alcohol is very true, but two wrongs dont make a right.  I dont like steroids in sports, it causes things like threads on starting strength about "why usa weightlifters arent strong", when some athletes have to stay cleaner than others, and the ones using get to come out looking like they are "better".

 Bottom line is rules are rules, and if youre playing a sport that has rules, you should have enough dignity to stay within those boundaries or do something else.  Most the people talking about steroids arent even anywhere close to a point that they couldnt make tons more progress if they knew how to train right or trained hard enough anyway.
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2011, 02:30:58 pm »
0
Ok, fair enough but then everyone else would be taking them too and you would be in the same position as you are now relative to everyone in your sport. You would have no option but to resort back to the dreaded barbell to find that extra edge. Say your ultimate goal is a 45" vertical knowing that the human limit is about 50", would you still have the same goal if people started jumping 60". Probably not, you'd say shit if they can jump 60" I know I can hit 50". Its our nature to never be satisfied, so as long as the competitive environment is equal for everyone, what's the difference? If steroids were legal and everyone took them, I'd definitely do the same but what difference would it really make. The people that were better than me before would still be better so nothing at all has changed.

What I really love and care about is the pain and suffering from working as hard as my body and mind can endure (while being smart about it of course). For some reason that suffering just gives me life and excites me more than anything. Then my satisfaction comes when I realize I'm stronger, faster, and more athletic from my training. Even if I take steroids and my performance jumps to another level, I'm still going to train to get the same feeling and to try to get even better. In essence, nothing would change. I really believe in the cliche, "its the journey that matters not the destination".

Yeah I completely agree with this ^^^

But it shouldn't be "wrong" or "imorral" if people would take roids. They should be legalized.

The only thing about roids that is wrong is if an athlete signs that he doesn't take any and competes in a roid-free environment while taking them.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Gary

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2011, 02:35:20 pm »
0
To be clear:

Cheating is cheating. If the rules say that doing something is grounds for disqualification, then that's all there is to it.

You don't get to pick up the golf ball and drop it in the hole. I don't get to wear boxer briefs in USAPL. That's all there is to that.

I just wish we would all rethink steroids. Their use seems to be getting the same negative propaganda that lots of things have gotten for no good reason. For example, we all laugh at "Reefer Madness" now, but that movie had a powerful effect. The sentiment that fueled and that was fueled by that movie is behind the ridiculous drug laws that have people doing hard time for being involved in the sale and distribution of marijuana.

Legality is a separate issue from acceptance in sports, but the two are tied at the hip. So I keep bringing it up. Sorry.

I want to be clear again: I will always abide by the rules. But I'm getting older and will be supplementing to keep my flagging testosterone levels up and will be thankful at that point that there are untested powerlifting federations. I will not hide my use from anyone and I will always abide by the rules of my voluntary associations.
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

Raptor

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2011, 02:44:19 pm »
-1

   If you are debating whether or not steroids should be legalized, then you have some ground to stand on there, if you are comparing taking steroids to training with weights, its a silly comparison.  You cant compare sticking a needle in your ass to spending years and years busting your ass under a barbell.

I'm more scared of a needle and injection than of a barbell.

 Training with barbells is not illegal or against any rules, its an even playing field, but one that takes actual BALLS to do.

Why?

The main reason taking steroids is an advantage in the first place is because not everyone is willing to break the rules and cheat, so the ones that do actually have an advantage.  

You need BALLS to break the rules.

 The people who get affected by steroids in sports are the ATHLETES, that want to stay clean, but have to compete against cheaters who have a clear advantage in their training.  If they are made legal then you have a level playing field, but many athletes dont want to literally be forced into taking drugs to play their sport and compete in their event, which is what that would entail.  Its easy to look from the outside in like many do and say there is no problem with drugs, but when its your job to compete, and YOU ARE FOLLOWING THE RULES, and you get beat by someone who IS BREAKING THE RULES, then its a different story.

Then do a drug-free athletic world and a drug-pro athletic world. I'd love to see a steroid-filled sprinter that runs 9.30. Even in the drug-free world, it's just a matter of not getting caught. There probably are compounds that just don't show up in the analysis. If you have the money, you have them and you're a gold medalist.

I dont agree with many of the drug policies regarding recreational drugs and the what Gary said about alcohol is very true, but two wrongs dont make a right.  I dont like steroids in sports, it causes things like threads on starting strength about "why usa weightlifters arent strong", when some athletes have to stay cleaner than others, and the ones using get to come out looking like they are "better".

It's going to happen nonetheless ^^^

Bottom line is rules are rules, and if youre playing a sport that has rules, you should have enough dignity to stay within those boundaries or do something else.  Most the people talking about steroids arent even anywhere close to a point that they couldnt make tons more progress if they knew how to train right or trained hard enough anyway.

Maybe I don't want to train and put my back, knees, bones, heck, even life to a risk under a heavy barbell. How about then? Or it's just about balls?

EDIT: I have a feeling Lance will take this message personally like he usually does when someone is contradicting his opinion, but... 8)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 02:46:08 pm by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: Barbells And Steroids: Equally Unfair
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2011, 03:12:46 pm »
0

I'm more scared of a needle and injection than of a barbell.

^^ cool story bro.  I saw an aardvark humping a turtle once .  Just throwing out some more random stuff that has nothing to do with the posts.

 Training with barbells is not illegal or against any rules, its an even playing field, but one that takes actual BALLS to do.

Quote
Why?

You cant seriously be this dumb. Why isnt it illegal to jump, or run, or fish? Youre seriously confused on the difference between performing athletic movements against resistance and shoving a 20 gauge needle filled with synthetic hormones into your glutes?  



Quote
You need BALLS to break the rules.

 cheating is COWARDLY, anyone who actually has BALLS already knows this.


Quote
Then do a drug-free athletic world and a drug-pro athletic world. I'd love to see a steroid-filled sprinter that runs 9.30. Even in the drug-free world, it's just a matter of not getting caught. There probably are compounds that just don't show up in the analysis. If you have the money, you have them and you're a gold medalist]

 Right, so since YOU want to see it, lets not let the actual ATHLETES WHO HAVE TO MAKE THAT DECISION TO USE DRUGS have a say in it. Your entertainment is more important than what they wish to put in their body.


Quote
It's going to happen nonetheless ^^^

brilliant! Youre saying there are already athletes using drugs in sports illegally? HOLY SHIT, this is revolutionary!



Quote
Maybe I don't want to train and put my back, knees, bones, heck, even life to a risk under a heavy barbell. How about then? Or it's just about balls?

 Then there are lots of other things you can do, get the fuck out of the athletic world or stop being a giant pussy.  Problem solved.

Quote
EDIT: I have a feeling Lance will take this message personally like he usually does when someone is contradicting his opinion, but... 8)

nope.  I agree with what garys last post said, I dont like cheaters, and I dont like athletes being forced into a situation to have to take any drug just to compete.  We spend a ton of time learning how to train correctly so that we can do things and help and others do things beyond what was possible, without breaking any laws or rules.  

 Its also very funny how magic you think steroids are, you need to come to texas and see the 10,000 frat boys benching 185 that have been juicing for 5 plus years straight.  There are a lot more weak as fuck, non athletic peons on steroids than there are elite athletes using them.  
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 03:17:05 pm by LanceSTS »
Relax.