Poll

Should I continue with 3x8 or should I switch to 3x5?

Continue with 3x8 then later on switch to 3x5
5 (62.5%)
Switch now to 3x5 since that's enough volume for proper hypertrophy
3 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: 3x8 or 3x5?  (Read 38776 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34034
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +9112
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2010, 03:13:28 pm »
0
I don't think I can get much better at jumping itself at this point... my movement efficiency is very very high at this moment... it's the lack of strength that's the culprit. It won't be a tragedy if I shy away from jumping for a bit, especially as I gain weight and fat and jumping would only cause great joint shocks and will feel like a sperm whale. It doesn't make much sense in my book. If I were to do "some" jumping, of which I might, I don't believe it would do anything for me to be quite frank.

I won't suddenly forget to jump just because I won't jump for a couple of months.

What makes sense to me is to do some kind of hypertrophy work to increase the muscle size a bit, then follow it with strength work to improve the neural connection of the new muscle (yes I know, I simplify things but you get the idea) with some MSEM every now and then, cut down on the fat, get some plyos after I'm leaner and lighter and enjoy my gains. This is the medium term idea.

why do you have to gain "weight AND FAT" ?

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2010, 03:22:04 pm »
0
Because in order to get a high caloric intake, I need carbs and shit. Fat is going to increase. I can't worry "OMG I don't want to gain fat, so I won't eat that and that". I'm already taking just a protein shake with no carbs, maybe I should plus on the carb thing with that as well.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Kellyb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2010, 03:38:30 pm »
0
Quote
The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.

bball2020

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
  • Respect: +66
    • View Profile
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2010, 03:48:20 pm »
0
so kelly your view is kind of "if you know how to and want to use olympic lifts they are a great tool, if not you can still achieve optimal results using other means"  ?

same as how mine has always been..I cant even fully master less complicated lift techniques on squat and bench..

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34034
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +9112
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2010, 03:57:01 pm »
0
Because in order to get a high caloric intake, I need carbs and shit. Fat is going to increase. I can't worry "OMG I don't want to gain fat, so I won't eat that and that". I'm already taking just a protein shake with no carbs, maybe I should plus on the carb thing with that as well.

I'm not really a fan of dirty bulks, this guy is massive & has a pretty good grasp on gaining lean mass, so he's more of an authoritative figure than myself:

http://www.adarq.org/forum/nutrition-supplementation/a-post-by-mountain-man-on-body-composition/msg19994/#msg19994

^^ here's who is giving that advice: http://www.adarq.org/forum/bodybuilding/scary-motherfawkers/msg19988/#msg19988

just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).. You can of course eat pasta/bread, but it should be in smaller portions. Stuffing your face with carbs is never a good idea for bulking imo.

Anyway, any time you think about just stuffing your face with trash to put on muscle, just look at this pic, it'll save your life:



dirty bulking = lame.

pc







Quote
The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.

nice

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2010, 04:41:47 pm »
0
Quote from: adarqui
just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).

That's exactly the plan. And to keep the insulin levels low. If I do it right, I could possibly lose fat and gain muscle at the same time as I have a lot of fat to lose. The thing is - I find eating overrated and pure marketing. I don't believe one bit in nutrition. I feel like the body will take what it needs from whatever food and you're going to look the same no matter what.

THE REAL PROBLEM is that my left elbow is in severe pain because of the low bar squats... I couldn't finish my workout today because of it. There is continuous pain because I can't get the palm over the bar in the low bar position without extreme strain in the wrist (which is bent beyond belief) and elbow (which is stretched beyond belief).
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34034
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +9112
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2010, 04:59:54 pm »
0
Quote from: adarqui
just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).

That's exactly the plan. And to keep the insulin levels low. If I do it right, I could possibly lose fat and gain muscle at the same time as I have a lot of fat to lose.

ahhh, cool man.



Quote
The thing is - I find eating overrated and pure marketing. I don't believe one bit in nutrition. I feel like the body will take what it needs from whatever food and you're going to look the same no matter what.

lol :F

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0</a>




Quote
THE REAL PROBLEM is that my left elbow is in severe pain because of the low bar squats... I couldn't finish my workout today because of it. There is continuous pain because I can't get the palm over the bar in the low bar position without extreme strain in the wrist (which is bent beyond belief) and elbow (which is stretched beyond belief).

damn that sucks, what if you purchased a safety squat bar? none of the baseball guys I trained squatted with a regular bar, just because, any little ache in their elbow/shoulders would freak them out, so safety squat bar became invaluable. Safety squat bar squatting is extremely hard though, it straight up kills your core. I dno man, a high bar squat would be less stress on your elbows, hope you figure something out.

peace man

LanceSTS

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2255
  • Respect: +550
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/LanceSTS
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2010, 05:22:05 pm »
0
Relax.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2010, 05:57:36 pm »
0
Well I'd appreciate any ideas in terms of what stretches to do for ... whatever it is that is keeping me from getting confortable into position. I'll read through Starting Strength more as it talks about this. I guess pec stretches, shoulder dislocations and stuff like that?

I mean, I can't really figure out what is keeping this situation into occuring, what is the inflexible muscle etc or if it's just my build itself that causes it (long arms/forearms/palms). But since my right arm has visibly less strain in it since I shoot with it (equally weird I must say), then it has to be flexibility to some extent.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2255
  • Respect: +550
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/LanceSTS
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2010, 06:08:06 pm »
0
  You can do some flexibility work and that will help to a certain extent, but you have to get the weight of the bar out of you hands.  Learning to let it sink into the rear delts is key, sometimes you have to widen the grip a little to allow this to happen.  I used to use a close grip and got some shoulder issues from it, moved it out and have not had an issue since.  If you look at the bar position in this video, you can see how little of the bar weight I actually carry in my hands, 99% of it is in the rear delts and upper traps.  This isnt to say that this position is best for everyone but it works for a long limbed frame very well.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEoJnhEqu_o" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEoJnhEqu_o</a>
Relax.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14619
  • Respect: +2539
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2010, 06:13:57 pm »
0
If you look at 0:13, your wrists are straight over the bar. I can't have that. If my wrists are to be over the bar, then they have to be bent at perpendicular to the bar (bent to the maximum amount if you will). Otherwise, if I were to keep them straight like you do at 0:13, they'd be much lower than the bar. I have no idea what that means in terms of flexibility... maybe... what... shoulder inflexibility? I kind of feel the strain in the scapulae as well if I am to force things up.

I tried things with a wider grip and it was actually worse because my wrists came at an angle vs. the bar instead of straight "up". There's also the BAD (very, very bad) issue of the bar slipping on my t-shirt on my back and loading the arms. It doesn't sink into anything, it just slips down my back so I have to struggle to keep it there. I tried raising my elbows, contracting my back, doing all kinds of things to prevent that but the truth is that I really have to work fast and finish my set before the bar slips so much that it destroys my arms completely.

PS. You have the meat to let the bar sink into something :D
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

steven-miller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2010, 07:10:58 pm »
0

That's great stuff, thanks for posting this!

TheSituation

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1335
  • Just remember me when I make it shine
  • Respect: +215
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2010, 07:56:12 pm »
0
Because in order to get a high caloric intake, I need carbs and shit. Fat is going to increase. I can't worry "OMG I don't want to gain fat, so I won't eat that and that". I'm already taking just a protein shake with no carbs, maybe I should plus on the carb thing with that as well.

I'm not really a fan of dirty bulks, this guy is massive & has a pretty good grasp on gaining lean mass, so he's more of an authoritative figure than myself:

http://www.adarq.org/forum/nutrition-supplementation/a-post-by-mountain-man-on-body-composition/msg19994/#msg19994

^^ here's who is giving that advice: http://www.adarq.org/forum/bodybuilding/scary-motherfawkers/msg19988/#msg19988

just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).. You can of course eat pasta/bread, but it should be in smaller portions. Stuffing your face with carbs is never a good idea for bulking imo.

Anyway, any time you think about just stuffing your face with trash to put on muscle, just look at this pic, it'll save your life:



dirty bulking = lame.

pc







Quote
The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.

nice

I disagree. I only dirty bulk (and when I cut I dirty cut) and I'm leaner than I ever have been. The reason dreamer got so fat is because he ate way too much and lifted with 0 intensity (if he even lifted at all). Rippetoe's kid lifted hard but ate way too much. He did Gomad on top of what he was already eating. So if he was eating enough for maintenance, add 2400 calories to that. About 500-750 max will go into muscle building and the rest goes into fat storage. It has nothing to do with the dirty bulk. Adding 2400 calories of chicken breast would have given him the same results.

For me, it's always been a matter of calories in, calories out (as long as you get the "right" amount of protein. Eating 15 twix bars may have the right amount of calories (3750 which is pretty good for bulking purposes) but it won't give you the results of a balanced diet). It may be different for others, but that's how its been for me. Obviously I'm just talking about weight gain/loss, not overall health. A clean diet would be way better for my health, but for muscle building purposes, who knows.

When I say dirty bulk, I'm saying eat whatever you want as long as you get the right amount of calories and enough protein (maybe 1g per pound of bodyweight. that's more than enough). I'm not saying eat whatever you want and disregard calories, acquire muscle.


And the easiest way to get calories in is to eat fat. You can do it easily with few carbs.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 08:03:13 pm by JCsBck »
I don't lift for girls, I lift for guys on the internet



[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily




Say NO to Maroko

And also NO to anyone who associates with him. No Taylor Allan. No Adam Scammenauger. No Kelly Baggett. No Elliot Hulse. No Jtrinsey. NO JUMP USA


Don't PM me asking me training questions. I'm here for the lulz. If you want help, post on the forums and get help from all the members, maybe even me.

n00bEM

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
  • Respect: 0
    • MSN Messenger - rudilerm@gmail.com
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2010, 10:24:52 pm »
0
Because in order to get a high caloric intake, I need carbs and shit. Fat is going to increase. I can't worry "OMG I don't want to gain fat, so I won't eat that and that". I'm already taking just a protein shake with no carbs, maybe I should plus on the carb thing with that as well.

I'm not really a fan of dirty bulks, this guy is massive & has a pretty good grasp on gaining lean mass, so he's more of an authoritative figure than myself:

http://www.adarq.org/forum/nutrition-supplementation/a-post-by-mountain-man-on-body-composition/msg19994/#msg19994

^^ here's who is giving that advice: http://www.adarq.org/forum/bodybuilding/scary-motherfawkers/msg19988/#msg19988

just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).. You can of course eat pasta/bread, but it should be in smaller portions. Stuffing your face with carbs is never a good idea for bulking imo.

Anyway, any time you think about just stuffing your face with trash to put on muscle, just look at this pic, it'll save your life:



dirty bulking = lame.

pc







Quote
The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.

nice

I disagree. I only dirty bulk (and when I cut I dirty cut) and I'm leaner than I ever have been. The reason dreamer got so fat is because he ate way too much and lifted with 0 intensity (if he even lifted at all). Rippetoe's kid lifted hard but ate way too much. He did Gomad on top of what he was already eating. So if he was eating enough for maintenance, add 2400 calories to that. About 500-750 max will go into muscle building and the rest goes into fat storage. It has nothing to do with the dirty bulk. Adding 2400 calories of chicken breast would have given him the same results.

For me, it's always been a matter of calories in, calories out (as long as you get the "right" amount of protein. Eating 15 twix bars may have the right amount of calories (3750 which is pretty good for bulking purposes) but it won't give you the results of a balanced diet). It may be different for others, but that's how its been for me. Obviously I'm just talking about weight gain/loss, not overall health. A clean diet would be way better for my health, but for muscle building purposes, who knows.

When I say dirty bulk, I'm saying eat whatever you want as long as you get the right amount of calories and enough protein (maybe 1g per pound of bodyweight. that's more than enough). I'm not saying eat whatever you want and disregard calories, acquire muscle.


And the easiest way to get calories in is to eat fat. You can do it easily with few carbs.

This whole post contradicts itself all over the place. You say macronutrients don't matter and it's all about calories. Then you say that you need 1g per pound of bodyweight. I also massively disagree about 2400 extra calories from any source is going to have the same effect.

Chicken breast in excess is not going to make you as fats as sugary chocolate or drinks in excess. Say out loud "Adding 2400 calories of chicken breast would have given him the same results." and just listen to how dumb it sounds.

I think we both agree that you need the right 'stuff' in order to gain muscle at least, eg. whole proteins and fats etc.
23 Years
6'0
91kg / 200lb
SVJ-27/28 inches
RVJ- 31 inches
SLVJ-34 inches

steven-miller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2010, 01:56:41 pm »
0
I don't like how Zach is butchered as an example of a failed diet in this ridiculous thread. His goal was to get bigger and stronger, both of which he accomplished very well. His goal was not to enter a physique contest or to be an underwear model. Just get over it, that there are people who couldn't care less if they have a six pack or not. Also notice that those who cry the loudest about this being an example of how not to approach eating and training are often also those who never got an average kid as strong as fast - good diet or not.

Would I encourage eating this way for an athlete that wants to jump higher? No, probably not since athletes will usually need to be in contest shape for a big proportion of the year. But if the objective is to get as strong as possible as fast as possible eating a ton of stuff with GOMAD is likely going to meet your needs very well.