2016 Rio Olympics - open thread

[T0ddday]

let's not forget about AI. i remember years ago bill simmons making the argument that iverson, had he grown up in a different place or chosen a different direction as a kid, could have been one of the greatest soccer players of all time, one of the greatest welterweight boxers of all time, one of the greatest cornerbacks of all time, one of the greatest tennis players of all time, one of the greatest (insert non-height/weight-dependent identity here) of all time. he was a freak's freak.

cool to learn about don bradman. gonna need to know about him in pakistan, they're nuts for cricket over there.

I actually was going to mention AI as being one of those what-if athletes. Watched a good documentary about him the other week.

Yeah Bradman is basically considered a god in India, although you'd hear about Sachin Tendulkar a lot more. Probably similar in Pakistan I would think.

I really don't get the point of what if athletes?  I feel like it is just something an idiot who never played sports would say.   I mean Bill Simmons gotta be the most sneaky racist guy I like ever seen.  My 93 year old Irish grandmother is less racist than him.

Iverson would be a great welterweight?  Yeah... Unless he has a glass jaw.  Which you have no idea about...

Iverson would be a champion tennis player?  Yeah because Roger Federer certainly uses Iverson like court speed to play tennis and Feds short arms which he uses to return body serves look just like AI. 

I think this is just annoying armchair analysis that unathletic racist people lump on athletes to sneakily take away a little of our accomplishments.  You don't hear them saying this about white players ever. 

Allen Iverson was a gym rat.  He worked incredibly hard on his game.  He was a six foot scoring champ.  You gotta work so damn hard to accomplish that.  How bout we just give him credit for that instead of diminishing all his accomplishments but suggesting he had some universal athletic gift that doesn't exist and would have been good at everything easily. 

[adarqui]

OMFG THAT DIVE.. amazing women's 400m final.

[AGC]

OMFG THAT DIVE.. amazing women's 400m final.

Aghh, I wish she hadn't fallen and won it running through....she might have got it anyway but I've seen it happen where a dive at the finish probably makes the difference.

[adarqui]

OMFG THAT DIVE.. amazing women's 400m final.

Aghh, I wish she hadn't fallen and won it running through....she might have got it anyway but I've seen it happen where a dive at the finish probably makes the difference.

ya after watching the replay, it looked like she didn't need to dive. when I saw it live, it looked like the dive won it for her. When Felix was coming back to (almost?) take the lead, it was nuts - i was freaking out.

[adarqui]

[adarqui]

the raw image from the info-graphic i posted earlier.. kinda cool just to see it as an image, zoomed out.

[LBSS]

bill simmons is definitely racist, but i don't take his "what if" thing about iverson that way. to me it's more just a way of trying to appreciate or describe obliquely iverson's unbelievable combination of quickness, hand-eye coordination, body awareness, and intelligence.

of course hypotheticals like that don't hold much water, in the same way that "randy moss would have been better if he hadn't smoked so much weed" or "usain bolt is lazy he could have run sub-9.5 if he weren't so lazy" don't. still kind of fun to think about iverson growing up in liverpool and spending his career going head-to-head with zidane.

[T0ddday]

OMFG THAT DIVE.. amazing women's 400m final.

Aghh, I wish she hadn't fallen and won it running through....she might have got it anyway but I've seen it happen where a dive at the finish probably makes the difference.

ya after watching the replay, it looked like she didn't need to dive. when I saw it live, it looked like the dive won it for her. When Felix was coming back to (almost?) take the lead, it was nuts - i was freaking out.

Yeah... Hard to say about the dive... Personally not a fan of diving... It can win a race in hurdles or slower races - women's 400m is certainly borderline...  I mean Felix is running a probably around 13 sec hundred pace at the end of the race...  Between 7-8 meters a second, does diving really make a difference then?  I dunno if it actually does BUT it is probably better than a mistimed lean!

Funny that Felix is brought up in a thread where the side conversation is athletic potential...

I'm sorry but her race strategy and training is terrible.  Felix jogged 48.x in the semi. She is a 21.x 200m runner.  With the right training she could easily go 47.9.  Her coach Bobby Kersee really isn't getting the most out of her IMO.  I've done a ton of training with the members of the group and his basic strategy to making athletes is to get fast athletes and make them run around and around and around the track.  It's speed endurance to death.  Then he gives them the same failed race strategy lashawn Merrit used - just wait and rely on the fact that you have more endurance and will be fresh in the end... Well it doesn't work in the 200 and it doesn't always work anymore in the 400m... Merritt's case is excusable cause he lost to a WR - but Felix lost to a 49.5 which is nothing for her...  She waited, sized her up and looked far better finishing... But that didn't win her the race...  I'm not surprised because she did hardly any speed work leading up to the olympics.  What is sad is I know her coach convinced her not to double 200/400 and focus on the 400 for a guarenteed medal... How ironic that had she kept the 200 she probably wouldn't have neglected the speed work she needed to win the 400...

[T0ddday]

bill simmons is definitely racist, but i don't take his "what if" thing about iverson that way. to me it's more just a way of trying to appreciate or describe obliquely iverson's unbelievable combination of quickness, hand-eye coordination, body awareness, and intelligence.

of course hypotheticals like that don't hold much water, in the same way that "randy moss would have been better if he hadn't smoked so much weed" or "usain bolt is lazy he could have run sub-9.5 if he weren't so lazy" don't. still kind of fun to think about iverson growing up in liverpool and spending his career going head-to-head with zidane.

I find those hypotheticals subtlety racist because they usually suggest that black athletes are lazy but naturally talented and if they only worked hard (which is of course something innate to whiteness) they would be so much better...

If you see my post about Felix - I strongly believe that there are world class athletes of all races that are so gifted that they are on the worlds stage despite suboptimal training... Naively we would assum you don't get to be great without almost perfect genetics and almost perfect environment (training) but there are athletes who could be even better... BUT...  I don't think a coach who recognizes that is being racist (he might be arrogant about his coaching skills which you can accuse me of) as long as he realizes it's not laziness that keeps world class athletes from sometimes fulfilling their potential but just improper training.   I believe if Allyson Felix trained differently and kept up her 200 she could run a faster 400... But I know she pukes constantly at practice... She not lazy... She just trains incredibly hard not always in the optimal way...

I don't know if I posted this before here before but this is my favorite example of this subtle racism used by sports commentators:

http://www.espn.com/blog/carolina-panthers/post/_/id/14097/colin-jones-continues-to-impress

This is an article about maybe the greatest freak athlete I have seen in person.  Colin Jones the safety for the Panthers.  This is a the kid who was shown the bench press as a freshman and threw up two plates.  Who had to run a 100m as a fourteen year old in basketball shoes and ran low 11.  Just that kid who is completely gifted.  Ran a 4.34 at the combine at 6' 220...

This is in the article:

"Not the fastest or the most athletic, but he works hard and he makes plays. "

Why would this statement be there?  Oh... Cause he is white.  Yes, I do think racism can be displayed by a white person talking about another white person..

This is my problem with comments that suggest that Iverson could have been good at anything... They sound flattering but IMO they are suggestive of a racial stereotype where black people have God given taken that provides them with an advantage in all sports while white people work hard.  It's also insulting to the actual performers of the sport to take questions about Tim Tebow and baseball and things of this nature.  The fact is that Allen Iverson or anybody couldn't have been great at all sports - because at the highest level sports require specific characteristics that's it's extremely unlikely are possessed by any individual across sports.  For example Allen Iverson had extremely long arms and big hands.  Multiple standard deviations always from the mean.  To be a successful boxer you have to take a punch - like hand size this is an untrainable characteristic...  You think he was also multiple standard deviations from the mean here too?  Unlikely.  You think he was multiple standard deviations from the mean for all characteristics for all sports? Impossible...

That said - I'm totally in love with your image of Iverson playing soccer with Zidane.  Iverson in a long sleeve jersey with his incredible ball skills... When you restrict that analogy to two sports that are actually somewhat similar it's totally awesome to speculate...

But lets just amend the reason we think Iverson would be so great at soccer to include "appreciate or describe obliquely iverson's unbelievable combination of quickness, hand-eye coordination, body awareness, and intelligence, and incredible WORK ETHIC. 

*not trying to give you a hard time or call you racist btw.  You respond extremely well to racism and don't take things personal which I appreciate... It's just you brought up my least favorite claim by one of the more annoying racist sports commentators...

[LBSS]

fair points. i still don't think that the spirit behind the "AI could have been great at lots of sports" hypothetical implies laziness -- at least not in my head; i certainly would never claim that iverson didn't bust his ass for his whole life to become as great as he was -- but i concede that it exists in a context where black athletes are stereotyped as talented and white ones as scrappy. and that i got it from a demonstrably racist writer. the bullshit about him and practice DEFINITELY implied laziness and was racist, but picturing him nutmegging central defenders on his way to goal after goal or crushing returns off the rise like agassi implies, to me, just different lifetimes of hard work. don't know shit about boxing so i'll take your word for it about taking a punch. but you can't divorce the specific from the general and in general we live in a racist country, so point taken.

anyway fuck bill simmons.

[T0ddday]

fair points. i still don't think that the spirit behind the "AI could have been great at lots of sports" hypothetical implies laziness -- at least not in my head; i certainly would never claim that iverson didn't bust his ass for his whole life to become as great as he was -- but i concede that it exists in a context where black athletes are stereotyped as talented and white ones as scrappy. and that i got it from a demonstrably racist writer. the bullshit about him and practice DEFINITELY implied laziness and was racist, but picturing him nutmegging central defenders on his way to goal after goal or crushing returns off the rise like agassi implies, to me, just different lifetimes of hard work. don't know shit about boxing so i'll take your word for it about taking a punch. but you can't divorce the specific from the general and in general we live in a racist country, so point taken.

anyway fuck bill simmons.

Yeah, the soccer imagery is pretty awesome.  I really think the intelligence one needs for soccer and basketball as far as navigation while dribbling AND awareness of teammates and secondary defenders is the most transferable thing and it's hard to not imagine him being pretty excellent at soccer...

Totally agree with your last point!

Also, since we are gonna go full out cursing at something, can we all agree "Fuck South Africa for not fielding a 400m relay team."  God the more I think about it the more frustrating I get.  Watching that 43.03 over and over again and it's just mindblowing.  He didn't negative split like Michael Johnson suggested - I have Kirani in 20.x and he was ahead of him...  BUT I do think he was sub 12 for his last 100m which I have only seen Butch Reynold and MJ do...  And nobody do after such a blistering start (obviously)  Not getting to see him again in the olympics is so cruel.

[T0ddday]

Wow. Ok I was wrong and it only makes me love the race more.  Got his splits - 10.7 9.8 10.5 12.1.

Wow.  So he ran just slower than my best 200m.... After he had just run a 20.5.  Funny how when you watch the race you swear his last 100m looks so fast.  It's not.  Michael Johnson ran 11.5 for the last 100m routinely.  But nobody ever comes through in 20.5 for the first 200m!  And he basically pulled James and Merrit into a a faster 250 that they were comfortable with...

Obviously I don't think they could have beat him no matter what but when you watch the race you see that it's not that his last 100m was fast but they made the fatal error of trying to catch him on th third turn and come off the straight even with him... I don't know the split for their last turn but it must have been ridiculous... After this they had nothing.

[maxent]

Women's Discus final was dope. The winner Sandra Perković went 1/5 on her attempts and the one make she had, she crushed the field by throwing 69.21m when everyone else was 60-65m. I think i have a new crush haha.

[adarqui]

OMFG THAT DIVE.. amazing women's 400m final.

Aghh, I wish she hadn't fallen and won it running through....she might have got it anyway but I've seen it happen where a dive at the finish probably makes the difference.

ya after watching the replay, it looked like she didn't need to dive. when I saw it live, it looked like the dive won it for her. When Felix was coming back to (almost?) take the lead, it was nuts - i was freaking out.

Yeah... Hard to say about the dive... Personally not a fan of diving... It can win a race in hurdles or slower races - women's 400m is certainly borderline...  I mean Felix is running a probably around 13 sec hundred pace at the end of the race...  Between 7-8 meters a second, does diving really make a difference then?  I dunno if it actually does BUT it is probably better than a mistimed lean!

Funny that Felix is brought up in a thread where the side conversation is athletic potential...

I'm sorry but her race strategy and training is terrible.  Felix jogged 48.x in the semi. She is a 21.x 200m runner.  With the right training she could easily go 47.9.  Her coach Bobby Kersee really isn't getting the most out of her IMO.  I've done a ton of training with the members of the group and his basic strategy to making athletes is to get fast athletes and make them run around and around and around the track.  It's speed endurance to death.  Then he gives them the same failed race strategy lashawn Merrit used - just wait and rely on the fact that you have more endurance and will be fresh in the end... Well it doesn't work in the 200 and it doesn't always work anymore in the 400m... Merritt's case is excusable cause he lost to a WR - but Felix lost to a 49.5 which is nothing for her...  She waited, sized her up and looked far better finishing... But that didn't win her the race...  I'm not surprised because she did hardly any speed work leading up to the olympics.  What is sad is I know her coach convinced her not to double 200/400 and focus on the 400 for a guarenteed medal... How ironic that had she kept the 200 she probably wouldn't have neglected the speed work she needed to win the 400...

crazy.

would like to see the difference between Felix & Niekerk's training.

[maxent]

I think it's more likely AI could take hits well considering he was tiny in the NBA and he got bodied up and banged up all the time but yet his resilience allowed him to play through numerous injuries. I remember seeing a graphic in the playoffs where he was playing with a whole host of injuries and still beasting. I think it was the finals series against Lakers. Will try to find it.