Author Topic: Age vs VO2max  (Read 1601376 times)

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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1560 on: September 26, 2012, 03:11:11 pm »
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Thanks both!
Sweeping the bar and pawing to the ground is check. But I think i might have been overarching, just like the video demonstrated. That is verified from the fact that i never felt any glute soreness after RDLs , even when i was doing 8reps@250lbs. No back issues either but that's no cue.
Neutral back priority from next time, great tip, training hamstrings AND glutes in one movement will be awesome!
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LanceSTS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1561 on: September 26, 2012, 03:46:22 pm »
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re: hams and glutes, this is the thing, you dont want to teach your body to drive hip extension with the hamstrings, and especially not the low back.  It will show up in sprints, squats, etc... once this happens, and its a hard movement pattern to unlearn.

 Im not big on all the "functional" horseshit but I do strongly believe that the way you strengthen the movement patterns in the weight room influences movement on the field/court a lot.  Once you are moving right in your strength exercises your body will tend to move that way doing anything, that is where you are STRONGEST.   

 If you look at the way a lot of guys who arent good at olympic lifts perform them, youll see this "over arching" happen during the second pull, taking the glutes (which should be the driver) out of the movement.  If they learn to rdl correctly it is a good way to correct this and get much more power into the lift. 
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Raptor

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1562 on: September 26, 2012, 04:43:56 pm »
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Yeah I always overarch. I can't even understand how you can keep the back in neutral in the first place. You (meaning - me) just can't feel if it's in neutral or not, and having anterior pelvic tilt doesn't help in recognizing that either. I just feel being overarched or bent forward... but have a very hard time being aware of it being in neutral.

Honestly, if I am to keep the chest high I'll pretty much automatically overarch so... it's very weird.

Luckily I use the deadlifts as straight leg deadlifts FOR the hamstrings so... whatever :D
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1563 on: September 26, 2012, 06:40:23 pm »
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Luckily I use the deadlifts as straight leg deadlifts FOR the hamstrings so... whatever :D

 You will get tons of hamstring work, in the way they are supposed to work with a proper rdl.  What you said right there identifies your problem perfectly.  "I over arch and dont know why, but im gonna keep hammering on that movement pattern and strengthen it so I have no chance of doing it right."

 Thats akin to using the barbell row as a bicep exercise. 


 You CAN fix it, and getting to neutral takes practice.  Try flexing your abdominals without shortening the torso.  Try to shove your pelvis through the end of your glutes as you go down ie. "turn the pelvis upside down".   Thats not possible obviously but given that cue will help a lot in getting to true neutral where you are driving from the correct muscles.   

 The problem you have is very common, especially with people who have been lifting for a while.  So much emphasis is put on "chest up and out" that it gets overdone, and eventually takes the glutes out the movement.  Start with an unloaded rdl, go to the bottom, and see if you can contract your glutes.  If you cant, go up again and "pull down" with the hip flexors.  Keep at it until you get the glutes firing hard, this will be the position you are looking for.
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Raptor

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1564 on: September 26, 2012, 06:47:59 pm »
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Yeah I have been practicing a posterior-tilt in my KB swings but at the end of the movement, and it really gets the glutes fire. The idea came from Bret Contreras' "American Deadlift".

But like you said, the "chest up and out" is exactly what got me where I am in the first place. It does a bunch of stuff, it usually turns you very quad dominant as well, for example even in the KB swings I have the tendency to keep an upright torso and bend the knee and take the tension of the hamstrings too so... it's all messed up.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1565 on: September 26, 2012, 06:56:15 pm »
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Yeah I have been practicing a posterior-tilt in my KB swings but at the end of the movement, and it really gets the glutes fire. The idea came from Bret Contreras' "American Deadlift".

But like you said, the "chest up and out" is exactly what got me where I am in the first place. It does a bunch of stuff, it usually turns you very quad dominant as well, for example even in the KB swings I have the tendency to keep an upright torso and bend the knee and take the tension of the hamstrings too so... it's all messed up.


How he describes that "American deadlift" is exactly how I am explaining the rdl, only keep the knee slightly bent and at the same angle with the rdl through the entire rom.

Every single one of the athletes I get that has the problem you do got it from squatting with those cues overdone.  Sometimes they are fairly strong already as well but they tend to feel their hams and quads in the squat much more than their glutes until they fix it.  I have them "flex the abs while staying tall" rather than chest out and it helps over time.  Think of a plank standing up  :strong:
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Raptor

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1566 on: September 26, 2012, 07:05:33 pm »
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Yeah, also keeping the chin a bit down as well I found out it helps preventing this "overchestation".

Where my mind is though is simulating a hip thrust at the top of the movement, and preparing that top of the movement hip thrust by keeping the glutes contracted throughout the lowering phase of the lift.

The problem is this, though - if you do use the deadlift, RDL, straight leg deadlift, hip thrust, etc etc etc as a glute-oriented exercise, what's left for the hamstrings. I really really want HUGE hamstrings and very strong hamstrings... I know they will continue to work as synergists in all these movements, and that's how they're supposed to work in the first place, but except the glute ham raises and leg curls, I don't know of any direct-ham development exercises.

My belief is that having great calf and hamstring strength would allow me to obtain and maintain a straight leg plant in my one-leg jumps, without all that overload occuring at the knee/knee collapse. That's the most important thing, by far, in the one leg jump at least when dunking is concerned. If you're able to get into that position without collapse then you're only going to be limited by glute power in the hip extension as far as voluntarily applied force is concerned in the jump itself, having the best possible lever (the straight leg).
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1567 on: September 26, 2012, 07:17:29 pm »
+1
Yeah, also keeping the chin a bit down as well I found out it helps preventing this "overchestation".


My belief is that having great calf and hamstring strength would allow me to obtain and maintain a straight leg plant in my one-leg jumps, without all that overload occuring at the knee/knee collapse. That's the most important thing, by far, in the one leg jump at least when dunking is concerned. If you're able to get into that position without collapse then you're only going to be limited by glute power in the hip extension as far as voluntarily applied force is concerned in the jump itself, having the best possible lever (the straight leg).

 I agree with all this ^ very much so.  Thing is, the hamstrings HAVE to get very strong in a PROPER rdl, IN THE EXACT MANNER YOU ARE REFERRING TO.  You need them to be "stiff" in movement, so the powerful hip extension doesnt cause a leak in power as you transfer force into the ground.  You will notice with an rdl, once it gets heavy, some will break at the knee in the exact manner you suggested. same thing with the reverse hyper.   Not allowing this is part of training the movement properly.  No way in the world you build up to a solid, good form, heavy rdl and dont have insane hamstring strength.

Note that people beginning to squat, and that have issues like this link here SHOULD focus on primarily CHEST WAY THE FUCK UP INTO OUTER SPACE.  So the cue has its uses, only not for guys like yourself who actually know what it feels like to maintain a flat back.  


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFo8apOEVJc&feature=channel&list=UL
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Raptor

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1568 on: September 26, 2012, 07:29:31 pm »
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Yeah I completely agree.

You know, for a lot of time (years) I thought the knee collapse occurs because of weak quads. I mean they get loaded eccentrically since they PREVENT the knee to flex (and they fire to keep it extended), so they must be the culprit of the knee collapse right?

Well, it turns out they are caught in the plant in their strongest, completely contracted concentrically (basically shortened) position whereas the hamstrings, because you have the leg out in front of you (all us people going for dunks get our jump leg so far in front in order to gain some more leverage, especially us shorter people) - you are bent at the waist quite a bit so the hamstrings receive all that shock while they are STRETCHED so they actually are very overloaded, much more so than the quads. And the hamstrings have the tendency to be weaker than the quads as well so you get a double-whammy there.

It took me quite a while to accept/understand this, I was thinking "what business do the hamstrings have at all in keeping the leg straight?" and biomechanically, they have none. But the way they function is what causes the knee to faulter and the quad overload to occur in the first place.

Sorry to hijacking vag's thread by the way but I find this fascinating, and could possibly help other people too.

But yeah I totally agree with you, take RDLs, straight leg deadlifts, GHRs, whatever, get them heavy using the right movement and you shouldn't really have reasons to complain about weak hamstrings I guess.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 07:32:43 pm by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Raptor

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1569 on: September 26, 2012, 07:30:52 pm »
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Fuuuuuuuuuuuck, what the fuck was that video?!

Where do you find these people haha
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Raptor

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1570 on: September 26, 2012, 07:34:00 pm »
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By the way - I tried now to do a bodyweight RDL vs a bodyweight straight leg deadlift, and I could keep much more tension in my glutes during the straight leg deadlift.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

LanceSTS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1571 on: September 26, 2012, 07:38:33 pm »
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  Raptor - yea, if you keep at it you can get to where youll get the glutes to turn on.  Go light, pause, etc., then soon you can turn it into a regular speed

  Vag- sorry for interruption log  :huh:



 If you want to talk more on it Raptor start a thread in my section on it and Ill get to it when I get back from gym tonight.
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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1572 on: September 27, 2012, 03:08:21 am »
+1

 Vag- sorry for interruption log  :huh:


No worries , i like a lot RDLs and i want to keep them as my 2nd main legs strength exercise. Also i said i think i am overarching too,  so all this was very interesting.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1573 on: September 27, 2012, 10:51:23 am »
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the spate of new posters jumping into the fray all at once: trolls or coincidence? your thoughts, please.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #1574 on: September 27, 2012, 11:05:10 am »
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the spate of new posters jumping into the fray all at once: trolls or coincidence? your thoughts, please.

I was alerted by the total randomness of the posts he chose to reply but they are all reasonable replies:
http://www.adarq.org/forum/profile/?u=12308;sa=showPosts
Not a bot. A troll , i don't know...

Are there more than ZT3219 ? Didn't see anything else unusual...
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?