Author Topic: Age vs VO2max  (Read 1601763 times)

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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3015 on: February 25, 2016, 11:18:06 am »
+1
^ Well, for this GPP thing i use 2 minutes between super-sets.
That means no rest at all between the superset exercises. Plate changing doesn't count as rest either.
e.g. , i do squats @ 82,5kg + OHP @42,5kg superset. So i put the 10kg+1,25kg plates on the inside and the 20kg plates on the outside. And it goes like:
Unrack, squat , re-rerack, remove 20kg plates , take a couple of breaths ( literally, a couple ), unrack for OHP, do OHP , re-rack, add 20kg plates , rest 2 minutes, restart.
For between exercises i count 2 minutes after i have set-up completely for the next exercise. e.g. do last squat+OHP superset, empty plates, go to smith machine, set-up step for back-leg , set weights, rest 2 minutes, start BSS+pullups supersets.
It is quite demanding, at the end of each superset HR is above 160, sometimes over 170 too. But that is the point. Recovery adapts and improves very fast. Currently, after 5 weeks in this thing, my HR drops from that 160-170 to around 120 in those 2 minutes of rest.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 11:20:07 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Dreyth

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3016 on: February 25, 2016, 11:38:59 am »
+1
Pretty cool. I think it's a good way to increase GPP, and it's nice that the supersets don't interfere with each other. Only cardio would interfere with the second of the supersetted exercises I guess, but you get better at that. I was thinking I wanted to try something like that in my training to cut workout times. How long do your workouts typically last?
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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3017 on: February 25, 2016, 12:06:28 pm »
+1
Cardio does interfere with the next supersets too , obviously not as much as with the second part of the same superset that you have to enter at 150+bpm .But even 120-130bpm which is the entry HR of the next superset is a lot. Also as sets go by, you accumulate a lot of fatigue, HR still drops but your body is more tired, just like going out and doing interval sprints, the more sets you do the harder they get.
This workout lasts around 50 minutes from the time you start your first set. Every set is around 2 minutes so 12*2 = 24 minutes . Breaks are 2 minutes too , 11*2 = 22 minutes. Add a couple of minutes for relocating & setting up the next exercise so there you are , 24+22+ 4 = 50,
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3018 on: February 26, 2016, 05:24:51 am »
0
25 February 2016

Bodyweight@session : ~89kg
Soreness : none
Injuries/aches : none

T0DDDAY'S GPP

Workout #15 ( Week #6 )

SUPERSET 1 - SQUAT ++ OHP:
6@82,5kg ++ 8@42,5kg
6@82,5kg ++ 8@42,5kg
6@82,5kg ++ 8@42,5kg
6@72,5kg ++ 8@42,5kg
-Terrible again. Bad form, quads jurting, feeling annoyed and angry , bleh.
I took off 10kg at las set just to see what would happen. It kinda worked, felt better.

SUPERSET 2 - BSS ++ PULLUPS:
8 each leg @ 40kg ++ 10
8 each leg @ 40kg ++ 6 + 4
8 each leg @ 40kg ++ 6 + 4
8 each leg @ 40kg ++ 6 + 4
-Nice. BSS eccentrics feeling it a bit but ok.
Pullups were strong but doing 10 at the first set came with a price, couldn't go over 6 straight at all the others. Still great.

SUPERSET 3 - RDL ++ LEG RAISE:
20@55kg ++ 20
15@75kg ++ 20
10@95kg ++ 20
5@115kg ++ 20
-Switched to straight(er) legs for raises. Got all reps but was sooo much harder.
RDL steady, no reason to up loads currently, this feels a perfect combination of weight and volume, i keep working on glute-drive.

Soooo, looked back at my log. It is almost a month now that I complain about dead legs and very hard squats. Squat load was 77,5kg at the time, yet although i complained at almost every workout since, i somehow added 10kg on my working load in two weeks while doing that program 3 times a week AND playing full court basketball once a week. I think it is safe to say i kinda burned-out myself. Just can't get how i kept adding weight while having tired and hurting legs. Anyway!
I am not quitting this program. I like it. I just have to take a step back , either you see it as a reset or as a deload. I am dropping my squat load to 75kg next time and keeping it there for a few workouts to see what happens. Maybe drop the BSS load to 30kg too. Will try to keep up with SMR and stretch too, i am not good at that but i will try.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3019 on: February 26, 2016, 09:47:13 am »
0
seems perfectly logical, you've been working consistently and hard. take a deload week. yes.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Dreyth

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3020 on: February 26, 2016, 10:45:26 am »
0
How have you de-loaded in the past? Do you drop the intensity, volume, density, etc? Did it work okay?

Just saying that every time i've de-loaded by lowering the weight, i've lost strength when I come back in and it takes some time to get it back (CNS). I have found de-loading to be more effective if i just cut all the sets in half, and rest a tiny bit longer between sets.

Another way i've found is very effective for me is to take an extra rest day or two. I don't mean skip workouts! I mean push the workouts back by a day. So if you lift mon-wed-fri, after lifting on mon-wed do sat-tue- and then push back again, fri-mon-wed-fri. You'll be back on schedule like that. This may not be feasible depending on your non-gym schedule though.

BUT if lowering the weights has worked for you in the past for just a week, go for it! Usually if de-loads don't work for me, I do a reset where i just lower the weights on all lifts by 10% and i slowly work back up to where i was and hopefully surpass my PR's after that. But i'll never do a de-load week where i lower weights by 20% or whatever just for that week. I always regret it.
I'm LAKERS from The Vertical Summit

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3021 on: February 26, 2016, 12:33:51 pm »
0
The sincere answer is that.... I don't deload. I use off weeks as deloads whenever they happen. Silly. When i actually deload ( rare , once every 2-3 years ) i use any of the two methods ( cut volule vs cut weights ) depending on how i feel. At this point i definitely feel i need to cut weights. It will be ~10kg which is ~12,5% on the bar but 6-7% on legs if you consider 0.85*BW to your squat.

On a different topic , let's start a nutritional geek flame war. The topic is : LOW CARB vs LOW FAT DIET ,  :highfive:  :wowthatwasnutswtf:  :uhhhfacepalm:
I've read a lot of stuff but all the studies seem useless. They compare different things: they cut a given quantity of fat or carbs from an original diet and then compare results. But that means they compare results of persons with DIFFERENT caloric input.
What i care about to know is , if for a given caloric input, trying to have a 'lower' carb or fat input would be benetcial. And what is 'low' for each anyway? Anything below 'standard' BMR suggestions?

Here is a graph of my macros this month ( values are g , so yes, calories graph would be different ). See how carbs peaks follow protein peaks while fat is generally steady with random peaks:



Any notes on it? How do those quantities seem to you all diet freaks?


inb4 : if protein is high and total calories are the planned, IT DOESN'T MATTER!
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3022 on: February 26, 2016, 01:36:16 pm »
0
it does matter, but it depends. some people do better on low-carb than others.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

maxent

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3023 on: February 26, 2016, 01:45:24 pm »
0
Tbh there's degrees of low carb. I was going off lowcarb diets but now i'm back on the wagon. If i had to shed lots of fat really quickly (say an anniversary or summer holiday or something) i'd go with as close to zero carb as possible - permitting up to 50g a day if it helps sleep. If I had to train (bball, lift etc) then i'd only go as low as 100g a day with one or two days going up to 200g (refeeds).  The former would give more fat loss than the latter but it's a trade off for performance sake. I'd save the carbs for dinner as much as possible to facilitate sleep again. I'm assuming we're talking about a person with decent amounts of bodyfat who is probably insulin resistant so less carbs = good.

And low fat doesn't really come into it. i would never do a diet with fat more than 50g a day. I aim for about 35g a day. Fat's full of calories so if you're cutting calories you should always cut fat way down imho.
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3024 on: February 27, 2016, 04:42:41 am »
0
Obviously a given quantity of fat has much more calories than the same quantity of carbs.
What I meant was, for a given total caloric input, would focusing on low carbs or fat have meaning? The calories won't change, they will be substituted.
I guess I was really looking for the recommended analogies. E.g. that 50g fat per da you mentioned.
I read some more though. I think I got my answer. I gotta lower my fat. I am hovering around 100g when it should be 75g for 2300 kcals (TDEE) / 55-60g for 1800kal (typical cutting day ).

I'm on it.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

T0ddday

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3025 on: February 27, 2016, 10:40:43 am »
0
Interesting stuff.  For the macros the others are on the right track.  Low carb diets may work best for weight loss, low carb gurus will tell you its because carbs are bad - it may just because dropping the nurtrient will least satiety is easiest, but for whatever reason they seem to work well for really fat people... 

Beyond that...  when we consider performance think of it like this:  in the short term the most imprtant macros are carbs, then protein,then fat.  In the long term its the other way around.  You can store protein in muscle and blood, a few days of zero protein are harmless... but zero carbs for two days in a row and any type of endurance work and you can forget your performance.  So for your macro graph the frazy spikes in protein and fat are fine...  but you could stabalize carbs better...

Finally.  I agree w Dreyth.  DONT DELOAD.  Cut volume, increase rest.  Increase weights.  Ill try and write you an example of how when i have more time. 

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3026 on: February 29, 2016, 08:49:23 am »
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Finally.  I agree w Dreyth.  DONT DELOAD.  Cut volume, increase rest.  Increase weights.  Ill try and write you an example of how when i have more time.

Too late. I did my first de-loading workout with cutting weights. It didn't quite work. I mean everything was easier, yes, legs had a chance to take it easy, but it kinda cancelled the workout essence, HR wouldn't go up, max was 130 or sth. Didn't occur to me that the weights played a role in this, silly, it is called intensity, lol.
Anyway, hope you get the time to give a deload example before next workout. Keep in mind that i decided to deload because my legs are really stressed. Both Eccentric and concentic on squats makes my quads hurt, it is real pain there, similar to a very light quad sprain. Form brakes down bad too. Even at the first set that i am not tired, it is not the daily ongoing fatigue from previous sets, fatigue is there before the workout. Currently my 80kg squat is slower and much uglier than my 105-110kg squat earlier this year. It is not a proper squat to be honest, it is a bad form squat with much forward lean, if i saw someone doing the squats i do i'd shake my head and wonder why he uses a load he cant handle.

Anyway, here is Saturday's workout

27 February 2016

Bodyweight@session : ~88,5kg
Soreness : none
Injuries/aches : none

T0DDDAY'S GPP

Workout #16 ( Week #6 )

SUPERSET 1 - SQUAT ++ OHP:
6@65kg ++ 8@35kg
6@65kg ++ 8@35kg
6@65kg ++ 8@35kg
6@65kg ++ 8@35kg

SUPERSET 2 - BSS ++ PULLUPS:
8 each leg @ 30kg ++ 8 + 2
8 each leg @ 30kg ++ 6 + 4
8 each leg @ 30kg ++ 6 + 4
8 each leg @ 30kg ++ 6 + 4
-Nice. BSS eccentrics feeling it a bit but ok.
Pullups were strong but doing 10 at the first set came with a price, couldn't go over 6 straight at all the others. Still great.

SUPERSET 3 - RDL ++ LEG RAISE:
20@40kg ++ 20
15@60kg ++ 20
10@80kg ++ 20
5@100kg ++ 20

So as stated i went down too much. -20kg  , -7.5kg OHP , -10kg BSS , -15kg RDL. I did break a good sweat again but as mentioned i was not reaching high HR, max was 130 , so minus 30-40bpm here too. It was refresing though.
Now i don't know if i should build up from here, stay here, or go back to my limit-strength weights, do as much reps as i can even if they are two or three and build up from there.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3027 on: March 01, 2016, 11:11:28 am »
+1
Diet reality check.
According to my data , the last month i have been on a weekly caloric deficit between 2000 and 3000 kcal. It should lead to ( roughly ) 1,5 to 2 kg weight loss. But that is not there, i am stable.
Ok, then i am recomping? Uhmmm, not really, weight/waist/BI scale/mirror, all the measurements I can do look the same. Maybe, MAYBE i look like i have a LITTLE bigger shoulders and back and quads. And maybe i have lost some LITTLE bodyfat from the upper abs area, but not at all from the lower. So ok, maybe i am achieving a small scale recomp but not to the extent i should expect, not even close considering the diet plan.
I am adjusting my TDEE. 2300 is too much. The missing link has the size of  2000kcal/week so around 250-300/day. So I am changing my TDEE from 2300 to 2000. Entropy did suggest that weeks ago, looks like he was right. Plan remains the same , cut ~500 all days that i don't lift, eat around TDEE the days that i lift.
Let's see how this will work.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Dreyth

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3028 on: March 01, 2016, 04:29:28 pm »
0
The de-load version of your previous workout could be:

SUPERSET 1 - SQUAT ++ OHP:
6@85kg ++ 8@42.5kg
6@85kg ++ 8@42.5kg

SUPERSET 2 - BSS ++ PULLUPS:
8 each leg @ 40kg ++ 8 + 2
8 each leg @ 40kg ++ 6 + 4

SUPERSET 3 - RDL ++ LEG RAISE:
10@95kg ++ 20
5@115kg ++ 20

In other words, just slash the sets in half. If you really need it, you could also extend your rest periods by a minute. For the RDLs, I included the two of your heavier sets. For me, this keeps my strength higher than the other option since it doesn't allow the weights to feel heavier next workout. And if the weights feel heavier... it means the CNS isn't as tuned for it (loss of neural strength due to whatever).

I've experimented before with cutting reps in half versus cutting sets in half for my de-loads. I like cutting the sets in half better and keeping the reps the same because I feel I actually get a training effect that way. I am at least doing one set to near exhaustion and stimulating some kind of muscle growth/strength gain.

Think of it this way. Say you are capable of 4x10@100kg for some lift. What would keep your strength better:
- A year of doing 2x10@100kg, never more
- A year of doing 4x5@100kg, never more
I would say the first option would. So that's what I choose for the de-load.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 04:37:32 pm by Dreyth »
I'm LAKERS from The Vertical Summit

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3029 on: March 02, 2016, 05:20:55 am »
+3
^Agreed, that is exactly the model i have in mind for 'volume-cut-deload'. However this time i felt i REALLY needed to lift something lighter. My legs were not just tired, i felt true pain. And those squats were so bad that were actually a technical failure.

inb4, upped my loads and applied a volume-cutting deload workout already yesterday, but i didn't want to do only 2 sets so i added a third one and reduced the reps:

1 March 2016

Bodyweight@session : ~88,5kg
Soreness : none
Injuries/aches : none

T0DDDAY'S GPP

Workout #17 ( Week #7 )

SUPERSET 1 - SQUAT ++ OHP:
3@80kg ++ 8@40kg
3@80kg ++ 8@40kg
4@80kg ++ 8@40kg

SUPERSET 2 - BSS ++ PULLUPS:
6 each leg @ 40kg ++ 10
6 each leg @ 40kg ++ 7 + 3
6 each leg @ 40kg ++ 6 + 4

SUPERSET 3 - RDL ++ LEG RAISE:
20@50kg ++ 20
15@70kg ++ 20
10@90kg ++ 20
5@110kg ++ 20

Modifications:
-Weights back up.
-Supersets per exercise reduced to 3 from 4.
-Rest between sets increased to 2:30 from 2 mins.
-Reps for squats reduced to those i can get in solid form.
-Reps for BSS reduced to 6/leg from 8/leg.

Result:
Good. Was fresher, finally enjoyed my squats ( having to squat-morning-grind ugly reps is highly irritating ) , also HR was back up at the red line area despite the fewer reps and bigger rests, over 160bpm at end of all sets and pushing over 170bmp at a few.

Finally, some optimism again.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 06:22:00 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?