Author Topic: Age vs VO2max  (Read 1601286 times)

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T0ddday

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2985 on: January 30, 2016, 02:35:56 pm »
0
Do you have a hex bar for bss?  Or at least straps?  Are you doing them with your foot on barbell or bench?  Use a barbell,its much better.

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2986 on: January 31, 2016, 05:18:17 am »
0
No hex bar, no straps  :uhhhfacepalm:
I will have to get the straps though soon, i see grip stopping my progress way before legs. I could do them with a barbel but again it is not so convenient to set it up at this gym.
Using a bench for back foot. I see the point about barbel, much better tool for a rotational axis. Will give it a try.
How do you feel  about barbel forward lunges instead of BSS? Is it much of a compromise?
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

T0ddday

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2987 on: January 31, 2016, 07:57:33 am »
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 I wouldnr make that swap.. i was gonna recommend  barbell lunges as an "am rap" finisher if you really a glutton for punishmrnt..  but no way as a replacement for bss...

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2988 on: February 01, 2016, 04:49:24 am »
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Diet update

Friday:
2200 kcal / 125g protein / ( TDEE even )

Saturday:
3200 kcal / 225g protein / ( 500 kcal surplus )

Sunday:
1800 kcal / 100g protein / ( 500 kcal deficit )

Also did some body measurements:
BW 87,5kg from 85,5.
Waits 91cm from 90cm
Average BF from scale and internet up to 17,5% from 17,25.
Added 2kg in 1 month. Although that is too much, LBM / BF added ratio is around 3:1 which is by FAR the best i have ever recorded.
However:
A) You can't trust those measurements anyway.
B) Latest measurement was Sunday morning so i am sure there was some extra glycogen and water ( and maybe food ) inside, measurement was skewed.

Anyway, forgetting the details, the general tendency of my ( much fluctuating lately ) bodyweight is going up. Gotta stabilize it. Doesn't make much sense as the total caloric week balance is deficit. I should be at least maintaining if not losing. Maybe my TDEE calculation is off, but i doubt it. I use the MyFitnessPal calculation that gives ~2300kcal on a non-workout day. Then adding 500kcal for gym workouts. Or maybe the eaten kcals calculation is off but i highly doubt that too.
Whatever, it is too early, gotta let it settle. I am restricting calories this week as planned. TDEE-even on workout days, at least -500 all others.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 04:53:23 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

maxent

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2989 on: February 01, 2016, 06:02:59 am »
0
Seems high an estimate for TDEE. If you're mostly sedentary i wouldn't cut at over 2000kcal! Another thing you gotta factor that the calories that are in trace foods (eg oil when cooking) will kill your deficit if you are cutting at a small calculated deficit because the cals you're not accounting for are actually erasing the deficit..!
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2990 on: February 01, 2016, 07:04:37 am »
+1
Great points about hidden oil/butter. But I do count it.
It has to be TDEE. 2000 feels too low though.
Well, we will see how it goes this week. Try-catch never loses ;)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 07:06:23 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

T0ddday

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2991 on: February 01, 2016, 07:34:21 am »
0
Great points about hidden oil/butter. But I do count it.
It has to be TDEE. 2000 feels too low though.
Well, we will see how it goes this week. Try-catch never loses ;)

Or it could be your training...

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2992 on: February 01, 2016, 07:54:52 am »
0
How do you mean that?
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

maxent

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2993 on: February 01, 2016, 08:40:00 am »
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Vag take 2000 calories split into 2 meals (or whatever) and do IF. Trust me, it's the way to go. You can kill a few kilos in weeks time and then get back to productive training sooner.
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2994 on: February 01, 2016, 01:02:10 pm »
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I am applying IF already, it fits my schedule/preference well. My eating window is 8-9hrs 2pm to 10-11pm. But i use 3 meals instead of 2 in this window. Still, the 15-16 hours of fasting are almost always there. Plan to get more 'strict' on IF when i switch to cutting.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Coges

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2995 on: February 01, 2016, 05:19:12 pm »
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Are you guys going P&F in your first meal/two meals and then C&P in the last meal or getting your 2/3 meals in to meet your daily needs?
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

T0ddday

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2996 on: February 01, 2016, 07:17:34 pm »
+2
How do you mean that?

I think I have written some long posts about this in the past so I will try and be somewhat concise.  But basically when it comes to body composition there are usually two camps (and as always neither is totally correct).  One is the IFFYM camp that insists calories are calories and if you have a deficit you will lose weight and if you have a surplus of calories you will gain weight.  The other is this camp that believes in a lot of voodoo like "you can actually get fat from not eating breakfast" and things like this.  The first camp usually scoffs at the second camp by reminding them that their claim violates the laws of thermodynamics and that they are obviously fools.   From a physicists perspective this is a silly thing to say because the human body isn't a thermodynamic energy harvesting machine...  Water/minerals and a million other things we put into our bodies clearly have energy but since we can't break the bonds of water and store it as energy but can store the raw materials as bodyweight - we are not a great model for thermodynamics.  The simplest example being this: If a human lives in space for 3 months and eats a caloric surplus the human may come back weighing less because of mineral bone less - this is weightloss despite a caloric surplus which will make a leangains IFFYM parrots head explode.

Back to you.   Of course I don't  know exactly why your seeing the scale go up... It could be unaccounted for oils in your food although unless you recently switched your food sources (say now you get your gyros from a new restaurant or the old restaurant changed their tzatzki sauce recipe) it probably won't make a large enough change that you can see it in a couple weeks...  Even if your error is always off in one direction and your consuming 300 more calories than you think this will take awhile to make a difference.  Since this isn't your first rodeo I highly doubt it.

Personally, if I had to bet I would look at what is probably the only variable thats changed - your training.  You are adding muscle.  Well not really.  You might say "but it takes way longer to build muscle" and you are right.  It's unlikely your adding significant amounts of maintainable tissue - but you are adding LBM or at the very least not adding much adipose.   You recently switched your training to GPP style training and have combined that with basketball.  Your short rest interval but still relatively high intensity training is going to have a different effect that traditional weight training.   It's been showing that in less than a day of a hard training session the body refills muscle glycogen stores provided carbohydrates are available - after glycogen is full the body starts ramping up the amount of muscle glycogen that can be stored in the muscle - however this happens slowly - unless of course there is an abundance of glycogen synthase in the body...   Which is exactly what your training will do.  Not only this but the GPP your doing is designed to increase muscle permeability to glucose and insulin sensitivity...  Additionally, the inflammatory response cycle to your training will add some non-adipose weight to your body. 

The good thing about all this is that your not gonna gain 20 lbs like this.  You will however rapidly increase work capacity (which will pay dividends) and experience greater weight fluctuations because of the larger limit of glycogen in the muscle.   I think some of the strongest evidence for this comes from how quickly it's lost - after knee surgery you often see athletes who lose 10-20 lbs in a month and their muscle tonus looks non-existent.   The fact that they get their size and strength back quickly suggests that's it's not that they are losing and gaining muscle tissue but that the layoff caused some quicker adaption - glycogen storage capacity.

I think the best way to be think of this adaption is to think of the concept of "newbie" gains.  If we divide the "newbie" gains into three categories we can consider the following quick gains. 

1) Limit strength.  Athletes who have never done bench press might add 50lbs in a month to their lift.  This neural adaption doesn't involve the building of tissue but will improve tonus (which may appear as tissue).  Once they get stuck and need to add tissue to add strength you will observe a plateau that 95% of the gym going population never makes it past.

2) Endurance.  If you start long distance running you will massively increase your V02 max.  This initial adaption is all peripheral (brain, lungs, etc) and will result in some water loss but will cause a plateau that requires that loss of fat or muscular adaptation.

3) Speed/Strength endurance (GPP).  These newbie gains are the only ones to cause a massive increase in weight.   The gains are quick.  You will notice that what you thought was an absolute nightmare will become easy in a few weeks.  These are the gains crossfitters live for.  The problem is the stimulus from this type of training is good but not great for building limit strength or top speed.   Best to train like this to increase work capacity and strength as long as it works and THEN transition to training more specific for strength/speed.

******************************

As for what you should do...   IMO advice like "throw away the scale" never makes sense unless the athlete is already lean.  If your not lean (eg 20lbs over your desired weight) then by all means keep the daily weigh-ins.  Sure you might freak out as you get a larger fluctuation and dial back on calories more than necessary --- but the fatter you are the harder it is to dial back TOO much.   If your aiming for a 500 calorie deficit and freak out after a weigh in and up it to a 1000 calorie deficit for a few days... Ok your training might suffer slightly.  But you will lose fat a bit faster which is the primary need for an athlete that much heavier than his ideal weight. 

In your case I don't really have any frame of reference for how fat you are.  You don't have pics online?   From your posts it seems you are not lean enough but not that fat which is kind of nebulous.   Probably wouldn't do that much harm to cut back on cals then even if it's just an overreaction to fluctuation.  If you really want to avoid seeing these fluctuations you can cut back on carbs a bit to keep them in check.  Additionally one piece of advice I would give you and everyone on this forum who is interested in body composition is this: buy a decent set of bodyfat calipers- they are cheap.  It will drastically improve what you are trying to achieve with your waist measurement.   Don't even use the skinfold formula to attempt to calculate bodyfat.  Just grab four to five locations - side, upper arm, back if your partner is willing, chest, thigh, etc.   Measure each and the sum of the measurements weekly.  If these numbers creep up then you are getting fat.  If they are going down then your leaning out. 


vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2997 on: February 02, 2016, 05:11:07 am »
0
^^^
GOLD!!!
Makes perfect sense too. I do get all of that, the fluctuation, the improved work capacity etc. I am not annoyed by fluctuation itself, i was kinda annoyed from not being able to have any conclusion from it. But it is too damn early, just two weeks in. I laid the numbers down on an excel and watched the graph, it is fine, the up-going tendency is very slight. After all, even if this becomes a slow clean bulk instead of a recomp at the beginning, it is very welcomed at this splendid 75-25% LBM to fat ratio, i always complained i can't get it over 60-40.
I highly doubt i underestimate my kcals, my diet is pretty much restricted and controlled and i count every little thing. When eating out i watch for traps too, e.g. if a side order of rice is greasy i will add a corresponding fat quantity in my log. If one thing changed at my nutrition it is protein intake, it is higher than ever recently, pushing over 250g some gym days. So this slight weight increase is probably the body's initial response to all this.
I will restrict the gym days kcals ( but not to a deficit, to a TDEE even state ) as i said this week just for experimental purposes.



1 February 2016

Bodyweight@session : ~89,5kg
Soreness : abs very sore , slant bench raises is the shit!
Injuries/aches : none

T0DDDAY'S GPP

Week #3 , workout #7

SUPERSET 1 - SQUAT ++ OHP:
6@80kg ++ 8@40kg
6@80kg ++ 8@40kg
6@80kg ++ 8@40kg
-Legs were fresher than Saturday but they proved to be weaker, 80kg was very challenging. OHP very strong.

SPEED HALF SQUATS FOR TIME:
10@80kg : 15 seconds
20@50kg : 25 seconds
-I wanted to get times close to my real 100-200m times, ok for the 100m but i don't run 25s 200m , should make it heavier to get to around 30s. I need to have room to improve too, the thresholds for adding weight for me should be something like breaking under 12,5 seconds for the heavy ones and 25 seconds on the light ones ( both at an average of 1,25sec/rep ).

SUPERSET 2 - BSS ++ PULLUPS:
8 each leg @ 20kg DBs ( +2kg per hand ) ++ 7 + 1
8 each leg @ 20kg DBs ( +2kg per hand ) ++ 6 + 2
8 each leg @ 20kg DBs ( +2kg per hand ) ++ 5 + 3
-Heavier DBs again, legs still strong for them, no grip probs today either.

SUPERSET 3 - RDL ++ LEG RAISE:
20@45kg ++ 20
15@65kg ++ 20
10@85kg ++ 17 + 3

Was short on time and fell even shorter from doing the speed half squats, so I had to sacrifice 4th set of supersets 2&3. Oh well.

Diet:
2800 kcal / 200g protein / ( TDEE even )
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2998 on: February 04, 2016, 03:56:58 am »
+1
3 February 2016

Bodyweight@session : ~88,5kg , it dropped, win!
Soreness : none
Injuries/aches : none

T0DDDAY'S GPP

Workout #8 ( Week #3 )

SUPERSET 1 - SQUAT ++ OHP:
6@82,5kg ( +2,5 kg ) ++ 8@40kg
6@82,5kg ( +2,5 kg ) ++ 8@40kg
6@82,5kg ( +2,5 kg ) ++ 8@40kg
6@82,5kg ( +2,5 kg ) ++ 8@40kg
-Strong OHP. Difficult squats : they are light-ish but legs are dead, feels like i am accumulating tons of systemic fatigue. I guess that is the point.

SUPERSET 2 - BSS ++ PULLUPS:
8 each leg @ 20kg DBs ++ 8
8 each leg @ 20kg DBs ++ 6 + 2
8 each leg @ 20kg DBs ++ 6 + 2
8 each leg @ 20kg DBs ++ 5 + 3
-Good BSS, srong grip. Got my 8 reps straight on first pullups set too. Nice.

SUPERSET 3 - RDL ++ LEG RAISE:
20@50kg ( +5 kg ) ++ 20
15@70kg ( +5 kg ) ++ 20
8+2@90kg ( +5 kg ) ++ 19 + 1
5@110kg ( +5 kg ) ++ 16 + 4
-Gripped the bar wrong at third set which caused a grip fail, had to re-rack and re-start for the last 2 reps. All ok at the others.
My all time rested RDL PR is 9@110kg. Today i got to 5@110kg after training for 1 hour @ 130-170 bpm HR and after having already RDLed a tonnage of almost 3000kg. Impressed.

Diet:
Yesterday ( no gym ) : 1900 Kcals / 140g protein / ( 400 Kcals deficit )
Today : 2900 Kcals / 250g protein / ( 100 Kcals surplus )

« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 04:29:00 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #2999 on: February 05, 2016, 04:42:33 am »
0
4 February 2016

1½ hours full court bball.
Kinda bad this time, too tired, feels like systemic fatigue has built up. Sleep wasn't so good lately too but i am on it.
Must add some stretching and SMR on off days too, same old story.

Diet:
1900 kcal / 120g protein / ( 1000 kcal deficit )
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?