Author Topic: Age vs VO2max  (Read 1602682 times)

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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4050 on: December 29, 2020, 08:02:50 am »
+1
28 December

"VO2 max" workout

1K warmup
SPRINT 6x800m / 2-3 minutes slow walking recovery
2K cool down

Total 9K @ 59:30

Most sprints timed around 3:40 ( 4:35 pace ). Fastest one was 3:30 ( 4:22 pace ), just 5 seconds slower than PR, despite ir being the 6th! Slowest 3:50 ( 4:48 pace ).
All of them were buffered. Very nice! .
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 09:02:56 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4051 on: December 31, 2020, 06:36:35 am »
+2
30 December

Long slow run 17K @ 1:47:58 ( 6:20 average km pace )

Lifetime distance  :personal-record: ( previous was 15K )
Lifetime duration  :personal-record: ( previous was 1:37:20 )
Long slow run pace  :personal-record: ( previous was 6:26 for 15K. Ive done 6:08 for 14K but it was uptempo ).
Also, from Saturday to Wednesday i run a total of 40K, my 7 days PR was 33K , so  here's another :personal-record:

Pretty impressive year cap. Happy new year all, stay healthy and, why not, happy!!!

Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4052 on: January 03, 2021, 06:11:06 am »
+2
Signed up for a 5K virtual race  :wowthatwasnutswtf: :ibrunning:

It is not a fixed date/time event, i have as many attempts as i want until 15 January. A tracker screenshot is enough.
Any peaking ideas?
I plan to keep my weekly programm which is 3 runs, 1 easy 10k/1h , 1 slow 15k/1:40h and one intense. I will reduce pace in the first two by 30 seconds, make sure the intense has 2 full rest days prior, make the intense one 5K time trial. That gives me 2 attempts.

Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4053 on: January 04, 2021, 04:24:36 am »
0
Read a few blogs about peaking. It seems that the above plan is not exactly correct. You want to taper but not stall, and the proper way is to cut back volume, not intensity as i suggested.
Anyway it's not like i have a huge time frame to plan and taper etc, i gotta do a 5K PR in 10 days. Should skip the 2 attempts idea and just do the obvious and plan a peak day near the deadline (next Friday).
What i do need to do though is do the rest of the workouts on flat course, this uphill/downhill is not good for the final phase of race prep, need to test my true race pace.

3 January

Easy run 10K @ 57:03

Pretty happy. It was true easy, not fast easy, 5:42 pace is very fast for that.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4054 on: January 04, 2021, 11:37:19 am »
+1
IDK, my past attempts to taper have all felt overwrought and it never goes the way i think it's supposed to. partly because i don't think my training has ever been consistent enough that a proper taper is really necessary. i think you should just carry on as you've been doing, take an extra day of rest before the first "race" day, see how you do, and go from there. in my admittedly limited experience, time trialing is its own thing, very unlike normal workouts. this is the first time you'll really be doing it, right? so just pick a day and go for it, don't overthink it. you'll know more about how it feels and what you need to do to prepare in retrospect.

my $0.02.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4055 on: January 05, 2021, 05:24:03 am »
0
Yes, that was exactly my intuitive approach. But then i said , why force 2 time trials in 10 days? Actually less than 10 since i need 4-5 of them to get ready for the first attempt.
Not decided yet. Weather has gone crazy lately too, yesterday it was storms and hail all day, today it is a spring-like sunny warm day. It will get too cold next week, gotta aim at the weekend.
FWIW, i have time-trialed 2 times, i did PR both but there was no special peak plan there, only psyched up. Actually the 1st one was the opposite of peaking, it was 2 days after a 4K race and i had lifted (including squats ) the between day too. lol, horrible. The other time I just did an easy shortened run 2 days before , not even a slow one, not even 2 off days.
Thanks!!!
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4056 on: January 06, 2021, 07:40:54 am »
+2
My warranty-replaced Garmin arrived just in time!  :wowthatwasnutswtf:

5 January

2.5K warm up
3K time trial : 14:06 ( 4:40 / 4:52 / 4:34 ) That is 3K  :personal-record: and also in-race-1K  :personal-record:
3.5K cool down

Total : 9K @ 59:02

That was nice. I was secretly hoping i would go below 4:30 but i did a silly warm-up: Just 2.5K at around 6:15 pace, not strides. Too long and fast for a warmup jog, no intensity stimulus at all, wrong.
Anyway, still got a double PR , happy!
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4057 on: January 08, 2021, 03:25:25 pm »
+2
8 January

~5K slow run warmup
1 Mile time trial ( 7:35 , 1K split 4:40 )
~5K slow run cool down

Total 11K @ 1:15:05

Weather is whack, not happy with frequency/volume lately. Also it will be raining all weekend so now i am targeting Monday for my virtual race.
Today i was kinda disappointed , i wanted a PR in both 1K and mile but i failed both. I should have known, you don't run 5K as a mile PR warmup. Also you don't do PR attempts with a head wind of 20-30kph ( 13-18 mph ).
Workout was good though, exactly what i wanted to do, long slow impact with a short max burst.
Alright, race mode on, 5K PR going down in 70 hours.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4058 on: January 10, 2021, 12:18:59 pm »
+2
Weather is whack, not happy with frequency/volume lately. Also it will be raining all weekend so now i am targeting Monday for my virtual race.

https://www.meteo.gr/cf-en.cfm?city_id=1

 :pokerface: :ffffffuuuuuu: :raging: :gtfo:

So Monday and Tuesday now look very moist, they will have good mild temperatures but very small not-raining windows and also 90-ish RH all day. Its a no.
Wednesday it all changes, north winds kick in, they will clear the skies, they will dry the air but they will also bring freezing temperatures and they will be be constantly blowing at 25kmh (18mph). Thursday even worse, wind speeds at 35kmh(22mph). Friday the winds get easier but it will be freezing all day. And that is the last day i can register a time too. FML

Dunno, I'll probably do another 'tapering' run tomorrow or Tuesday ( thinking a shortened version of last run, a pace between long slow and easy for 8-10K with a max 1K in the middle ), then do the race on Friday mid-day so the sun makes up for the cold.
OR , if i see a dry window tomorrow do the race, rest 3 days and repeat Friday.
We will see.

FUCK you very much Mr weather!!!

« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 12:49:55 pm by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4059 on: January 12, 2021, 03:20:18 pm »
+1
12 January 2020

~2K warmup ( including dynamic warmup and strides )

VIRTUAL RACE 5K TIME TRIAL : 24:09 , "official"  :personal-record: :ibrunning: :personal-record: :ibrunning: :personal-record: :ibrunning:

2K ultra slow cool down

Awesome. I have a 23:42 time trial logged but it was not Garmin, GPS went off that day so i had to guestimate the exact distance.
This one today was done on a pre-measured course on google maps, with which Garmin tracking agreed with absolute precision, both about the 2.5K turning point and the finish which was exactly where i started, less than 5m deviation. That is why i log it as 'official'. Previous best official 5K time was 25:18.

It was pretty windy, 15 to 20 kmh, that was head wind for half the race and tail wind for the other half. I suppose that just like uphill and downhill, the fact that head/tail wind distances break even doesn't mean it equals a no-wind time. The first half was so frustrating, i was struggling to preserve a pace around 5:00. But i knew it was the wind and stayed patient. Then i turned around and bam, turbo boost despite the fatigue.

Splits: 4:57 / 5:11 / 4:52 / 4:40 / 4:27

If weather goes well and it is not windy on Friday and i feel recovered, i may attempt to improve on that. If not, still delighted!
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4060 on: January 12, 2021, 06:57:04 pm »
0
strong negative splits are a good sign, too, means you have more in you right now i think.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4061 on: January 13, 2021, 04:02:18 am »
0
Agree , but can't really quantify how strong those negatives where, because of the wind. I was on a negative split strategy though, it seems to work better for me than positive or neutral.
But i do think i can do better, because i am now convinced that this was like a downhill-uphill race, stategy and reserves linearity destroyed by the 2.5K 'uphill' start.

Here is the pace graph. Look at the reverse point that i circled. The difference is huge, that is no reserves, that is the wind changing from head to tail.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 04:03:51 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4062 on: January 15, 2021, 04:28:01 am »
0
14 January

Ultra slow recovery run 10K @ 1:17:45

HELP, someone read this in detail!!!!
So i was wrecked from the time trial PR , wanted to do a really low impact run. Training pace calculator says long run pace should be in the 6:08 to 6:53 range.
I thought that going around 7:00 or a little slower would have me at sub-aerobic HR. Right ? WRONG! I was going awfully slow but HR kept rising over 150. I had to walk for 100-200m to bring it to 130, then jog again. That kept repeating, even when the jogging pace was horrifically slow, 8:00 to 8:30.
Around 5K i was fed up with that, decided to turn this to a pace/HR test.
Did 1km at 5K race pace, not all out. That landed at 4:50 with an average heart rate of 155.
Then walked for 3 minutes which lowered HR to 120 ( was down to 140 in 90 seconds ).
Then never looked at watch again, did 3.5K at a "long -really-slow" run pace. It landed at 7:00-7:30 but with 150-ish HR.

Here is the complete matrix:

RUNNING          PACE     AVERAGE HR   MAX HR
Steady slow      7:11          142              158
Slow+walk        8:00          145              159
Slow+walk        8:23          143              152
Slow+walk        8:42          138              153
Slow+walk        8:55          139              152   
5K race pace    4:52           156              165
Steady slow     7:40           151              164
Steady slow     7:41           152              165
Steady slow     7:00           153              165
Steady slow     7:30           150              159

WTF is that??? How do those numbers add up?
Last jog+walk km before the 5K race pace km was 8:55 pace!!!! That is not even jogging speed, is is walking and rather slow. And yet it was 139 average HR with 152 max.
And then the last slow 3.5K were essentially the same HR with the 1K @ race pace, despite them being 60%effort ( 4:50 vs 7:40 ).

150bpm may seem low to you but it is not for me, my 100% HR is now about 182 or so. 150 bpm is 82% max, it is intense aerobic.
Or isn't it?  Is there a minimum threshold? Like you start running, bam , 145, and then your VO2max capacity determines how faster you can go or something like that?
Enlighten me please because i am awfully frustrated...

Edit:
Some really good answers/points in here : https://medium.com/runners-life/how-slow-is-slow-7431bb7cc029
  • Ideal slow pace HR for me is around 135, watch agrees, the green zone is 130 to 140
  • HR is not the decisive matter. "easy" feel is more important. But in any case 155 / 85%max is not easy
  • True truly slow is indeed boring AF , nearly impossible, almost double race pace so about 9:00 for me
  • Too long runs are not recovery, even if very slow, distance takes over speed
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 12:17:02 pm by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4063 on: January 16, 2021, 03:00:12 pm »
+1
idk i never pay attention to heart rate. how confident are you in the accuracy of the watch, anyway? iirc they're not nearly as accurate as a chest monitor. and how confident are you that your max HR is 182?

if you're really worried there's something wrong with your heart then i'd see a doctor. otherwise, i wouldn't sweat it if i were you. if the slow run "felt" relaxed and your breathing was easy then it was probably okay. i've written this on my own journal but i tend to set pace by steps per breath. my default pace for a 50 min-1 hour run is 4-5 steps for every in breath and every out breath. that corresponds to 4:50-5:00 per km depending on the day and route. can speak in complete sentences but have to take breaks between sentences. sunday long runs i should be able to speak in complete paragraphs unless i'm going up a steep hill. that corresponds to 5:40-5:50 per km. (tbh the slow runs "should" be slower but they take so little out of me and it'd be hard to go slower and still have my parents bike along, so whatever.)

if the high-HR sections early in that run felt hard, then i think you did the right thing by mixing in walking. sometimes your body is raring to go and sometimes it's fatigued. that's my $0.02: just focus on feel/LOE and stay consistent.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #4064 on: January 17, 2021, 06:49:44 am »
+1
Thanks, good points.
I am not worried about my heart. I am just trying to figure this out, it seems unnatural that very slow running brings HR at almost the same level as intense effort. Run-efficiency-wise, not health-wise.
I am a bit shamed to admit that i guess the most frustrating factor is... the watch coach. It uses solely HR to understand the workout intensity, so the low/medium/high effort balance an therefore general progress plan is always screwed. I can get over it , but i would love it if i didn't have to, if i had it actively coaching me. But that is a pitfall that i kinda fell last spring too, i get trapped into doing too slow workouts and i am missing the effect of the 'normal' and 'slow but not too slow' long runs.
FWIW , i did think of accuracy, i hand-measured HR last time both at highs and at lows and it was accurate. But who knows, maybe wrist movement adds noise so during-run-measurements are off. As for max HR, the 220-age formula gives around 175 but 182 is the max measurement i ever got, from the watch and with hand-check. Not sure that maximum measured HR is the actual 100% though.
Anyway, as you and the articles say, the hell with the watch coach and HR. If it feels easy, it is easy. Maybe less or more easy than targeted, but easy. Talking tests are good and im using them at the slow runs already. Plus the recent race time based training pace calculators, which actually agree with feels. I know my max 5K is 24:00 so i have adjective data. I will keep doing my thing, weekly plan 1 normal around 60m , 1 long slow about 1:30/1:45 and one HIIT. I do want to add a 4th weekly running day , so maybe use this for 'recovery', 45 minutes @ horribly boring slow, almost double race pace, see what happens.
Amen.

In other news:
-Virtual race deadline has been expanded to 31 January, so i get another chance. Currently placing in top 30 of 200, all genders and ages. If i do 23-ish i get in top 20 & top 10%.
-Weather went off, we have snow, below freezing temperatures, intense winds, rain, hail etc. Forced derail for a few days. Time to start lifting again.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 07:08:51 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?