continuing the train of thought from T0dday's journal, here are my ideas, even though I think a consensus has been reached:
If you can squat down and up fast you SHOULD be able to jump high.
This may be true for an SVJ, but not as true for an RVJ. Jumping high for LBSS as discussed in T0dday's journal will involve a greater RFD and much greater movement efficiency. Greater movement efficiency will require greater speed in the approach, which requires greater ability to absorb that speed. Squats have a minimal effect on rate of force absorption. Even fast squats, primarily because the squat require force absorption at a below parallel position, which almost no one does an RVJ from, and squats aren't ever fast, unless we're talking about jump squats, which still can be slow, and require less force absorption than actual jumping.
From personal experience I have this one test of force absorption: the drop landing, to show why squats won't help much with RVJ, based on when I used to do the following
185lbs jump 1/2 squats - dropped in a 1/2 squat position comfortably (my max squat was below 275lbs)
335lbs back squat (full squat) - have to drop into a deep squat position from same height drop. Strength from back squatting did not improve force absorption ability.
I think this makes sense and isn't a unique finding to my body type.
I think both of these comments put an over-emphasis on the weight room for the athlete.
agreed.
Then maybe he should spend more time in the strength-speed rather than speed-strength spectrum. Maybe he's not as good at high speeds yet, so maybe it's a good idea to train at just SLIGHTLY faster speeds than the usual squat (think power cleans, speed box squats etc) and after he gets better at these THEN transition into more intense plyometric stuff.
agreed-ish, start with a slightly faster exercises, for 4 weeks as Raptor suggested, then move on to even faster stuff, for another 4 weeks, check results, repeat, while reducing squat volume.
Yeah well I don't remember him doing anything specifically targeting the posterior chain (granted I'm too lazy to look in his log to search for it) - but I haven't seen RDLs, hip thrusts etc for HIGH volumes. I'd even do unilateral stuff (dumbbell BSSs, one-leg deadlifts, one-leg explosive box squats like Lance said).
disagreed. I think the emphasis should be on the speed of the exercise rather than what muscles are involved. Heavy deadlifts will have a negligible effect on his vertical jump - my hypothesis. However, reverse depth jumps (landing backwards requires more from the hip), top speed sprinting or longer sprints, single legged jumping, will help more.
Maybe a split that has him squatting 2 times per week, one day full squats and one halves , some form of DL in the one day and some sort of lunge in the other one. Best jumping day would be between the halves and the fulls, closer to the fulls to take full advantage of the halves potentiation effect.
Just a couple of extra thoughts.
and that brings my to my exrx.
Reduce squatting to 2 days a week, one day being a regular squat day, the second being a jump/explosive squat day from anything above a 1/2 squat position.
I have seen LBSS in person, and when I trained with him he paused squatted 275 in the back squat easily for 5 reps for sets, and he has a 2xbw squat. That's not bad at all. The question that makes us hesitant to reduce the back squat is... how high could he jump if he squatted 405 paused...? And we have evidence that this works from Kingfish and Rutgers dunker and many more that this could work for LBSS. But he can already backsquat 2xbw, and hasn't seen much improvement, so that evidence isn't that compelling anymore.
This is why I recommend first learning to jump correctly, then emphasizing weighted jumping exercises, and let go of numbers in the weight room. Perhaps creating a new thread on DLRVJ form will help, because the coordination required in a RVJ is not easy to master. I still struggle with it but have seen my jump height improve from learning the correct form.
Jumping more, with incorrect form, will not help. LBSS needs to lower his COM/hips during the penultimate step of the DLRVJ much more than he is now to reduce braking forces in the knee, and well, to jump higher. Learning to DLRVJ properly is the most important thing for him right now, more important than depth jumps, pogos, or any other plyo.
Favoring explosive exercises in the weight room such as jump squats may help a little with improving DLRVJ form, or even just 1/2 squats. They will help with "expressing" strength and improving RFD. I wouldn't recommend box squats however, the amortization needs to be trained with weights.
