Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 1467546 times)

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LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1620 on: February 06, 2014, 03:32:19 pm »
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you're the vert measurement doctor. i defer.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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entropy

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chasing athleticism -- SPP phase -- W3D3 (of 12wks)
« Reply #1621 on: February 08, 2014, 05:03:12 am »
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Training
FSB 1x130, 0Fx135
BS 2x2x132.5
BBS 2x3x137.5, 1x142.5, 1x150, 0Fx160
CR 2x15x205 (PR)
BBALL ~ 90 minutes
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 10:11:34 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1622 on: February 08, 2014, 11:30:11 am »
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Why don't you start doing 4-6 weeks of explosive work? Depth jumps, jump squats, KB swings, hang cleans, hang snatches, speed squats, explosive box squats, box jumps, broad jumps, bounds, plyos of all sorts and jumps to the rim.

To me, you're already pretty strong and maybe it's a good time to get into such a cycle right now because, again - that's what you seem to lack the most.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1623 on: February 09, 2014, 01:20:28 am »
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Why don't you start doing 4-6 weeks of explosive work? Depth jumps, jump squats, KB swings, hang cleans, hang snatches, speed squats, explosive box squats, box jumps, broad jumps, bounds, plyos of all sorts and jumps to the rim.

To me, you're already pretty strong and maybe it's a good time to get into such a cycle right now because, again - that's what you seem to lack the most.

Because i'm still cutting, limited recovery resources. I have another 5kg of bodyfat to lose yet. I do plan on doing it though, just as soon as i'm below 85kg, i'll let the remaining fat loss come from conditioning alone. Hopefully it won't take to long because i'm running out of time. I agree with you my reactivity deficit is far greater than my strength one.

For the record, i am under 91kg now, just barely, have seem to have hit a wall. Hoping to wake up a kilo or two lighter in the next coming days, that would get me back on track.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1624 on: February 09, 2014, 07:12:20 am »
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Yeah, what I mean is that it's a good idea to cycle strength and explosive cycles for like... forever for our goal.

Once you plateau in strength you can switch to explosive stuff for a while, improve the explosiveness, and then get back to strength. And so on.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1625 on: February 09, 2014, 08:12:39 am »
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That's a really good point bro. I've just never been strong enough to do anything more than just basic lifts. Maybe some day. Sigh. I hate myself lol.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1626 on: February 09, 2014, 08:37:58 am »
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I am with raptor here. You don't even need to pleateau to switch to a more RFD oriented scheme. Neither wight/bf is such a restriction, it is not like you will be doing DJs and bounds 24/7. You don't have to change much things, you can add some elements. Maybe just one FA/RFD session weekly? Think of it as something like periodization, a transition phase. Keep strength as main focus but add an FA/RFD session with DJs, jump squats, speed squats, even a couple of heavy singles at the end to feed your everlasting strength loath, whatever. That said, nothing wrong with what you are doing now. Going to dunk often should take care most of the needed RFD training. But would DJs benefit you? Definitely yes imho.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

entropy

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chasing athleticism -- SPP phase -- W3D4 (of 12wks)
« Reply #1627 on: February 09, 2014, 08:47:39 am »
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Training
WCU 1x112 (PR)
WCr 2x20
LR 8, 10, 10x105kg (PR)

Notes:
My triceps were so torched by the time i was done with that lifetime chinup pr, that I couldn't do my volume sets afterwards lol. So that sucks. I kind of keep finding myself doing 4 training sessions per week which is not ideal. I just don't know where to put some of these lifts without making any oneday too long/difficult to recover from/. I will do a seperate post on this actually.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 09:06:30 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1628 on: February 09, 2014, 09:28:07 am »
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Here is the story. My lifts are all over the place, i'm losing anywhere from 15kg to 40kg on my squats since january when I wrapped up RSR2. I'm finally adapted to playing basketball and come out well recovered the day after. Which is great news because this means I can keep improving my game skills gradually. My conditioning is still very poor, i'd put it at 2/10, and only because I feel I made the jump from 1/10 yesterday. Still really really fat, the more weight i lose, the fatter I think i am, which i think is a normal and unfortunate feature of cutting.

So in this situation where i'm struggling to keep my head over water, when i'm trying only to lose 10-15kg on my squats, i don't really have time to add in extra exercises which prob won't do anything for me right now because they'll eat into recovery for squats. Yes i know in theory you can do make it work, in practice i am already struggling and that's without even doing any extra work.

I really am quite stuck right now for ideas. I know there are a ton of ideas out there, but i have to reconcile that with my body and personal experience and i know most of the programs would never work for me.

I haven't even got a day to day plan for what to do in the gym. Kind of freestyling it based on mood and feel.. :/
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 09:34:56 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

AGC

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1629 on: February 09, 2014, 11:23:13 pm »
+1
Here is the story. My lifts are all over the place, i'm losing anywhere from 15kg to 40kg on my squats since january when I wrapped up RSR2. I'm finally adapted to playing basketball and come out well recovered the day after. Which is great news because this means I can keep improving my game skills gradually. My conditioning is still very poor, i'd put it at 2/10, and only because I feel I made the jump from 1/10 yesterday. Still really really fat, the more weight i lose, the fatter I think i am, which i think is a normal and unfortunate feature of cutting.

So in this situation where i'm struggling to keep my head over water, when i'm trying only to lose 10-15kg on my squats, i don't really have time to add in extra exercises which prob won't do anything for me right now because they'll eat into recovery for squats. Yes i know in theory you can do make it work, in practice i am already struggling and that's without even doing any extra work.

I really am quite stuck right now for ideas. I know there are a ton of ideas out there, but i have to reconcile that with my body and personal experience and i know most of the programs would never work for me.

I haven't even got a day to day plan for what to do in the gym. Kind of freestyling it based on mood and feel.. :/

My only advice is to stop worrying about the squats right now. It sounds like you've got a lot of work to do to get fit, fast and skilled for your bball comp. Something has to give if you're cutting. Unfortunately it just seems you struggle to make strength gains from bulking stick during the cut back down to weight. Which kind of makes you wonder if for you, that whole strategy is flawed. This is long-term thinking of course, but have you ever considered NOT bulking/cutting, just trying your hardest to get to an athletic bodyfat %, establishing baseline strength levels for the major lifts, then centering your training around speed and basketball skill development and periodically alternating between short-term power/RFD blocks WITHOUT drastic bodyweight changes?

From what I've seen all over the web and in real-life in my club (and mostly from what my coach has been telling me), developing high bar squat strength during the 'off-season' (or other similar heavy, 'slow' compound lifts) is great for developing sufficient musculature and a power base for the 'season'. The power base is continually utilised during training for your specific sport (sprints, basketball, volleyball, whatever) and more of an emphasis is placed on the increasing measures of power during the season (i.e. broad jumps, std triple jumps, bounds, shot tosses, verticals, power cleans and other oly lifts). HB squat strength of most of the guys in the club usually decreases during this time, simply because it's not done much and the neural connections for the particular movement are de-emphasised. The coach will attempt to ensure his athletes aren't dropping too much strength during the season by keep squats semi-high intensity but with lower volume to make sure the important stuff is done well. For example, atm he prescribes 1x10@10RM (75% load) after all power work is done. Other coaches might do higher intensity lower rep stuff but it works for him. Now, would it be good if squat numbers went up during the season as well? Of course! But it isn't realistic in highly trained athletes (even amateurs like us), and probably not crucial either.

He also subscribes to Charlie Francis and others in that athletes shouldn't need to gain excessive mass over their careers. His rule of thumb is body fat should be kept in single digits during on-season and it's OK if it goes to double digits during off-season, but never over 15% (depending on natural bf levels). In other words, if he saw how you have been training over the past few months he would probably have a heart attack  :D. Just food for thought.

ChrisM

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1630 on: February 09, 2014, 11:46:41 pm »
+1
I agree with acole here, not only for what he posted but also because from what I've seen two things usually happen when guys try to bulk and cut.

1. They never cut because they are never satisfied with how strong they are. They change to a 'strongman' mindset, more more more regardless if it has any carryover to their original intent.

2. They start a cut and it's too hard (they lack discipline/motivation) or they don't see immediate results and go back to reason 1.

With that said (in addition to above posted) I'd have to say you would probably have had better results if you stayed lean, practiced jumping/skill work often and when you hit the weights set goals and a program but don't really 'worry' about hitting them as long as your on court performance is improving.
Insert motivational quote here...

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1631 on: February 10, 2014, 01:18:11 am »
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I def can't argue with doing more RFD work. I know I need that badly. But, i'm going to defend the bulk. I had to gain enough mass to make myself a better lifter. It was at the point i hit around 95kg bodyweight at the end of RSR1 and during RSR2 i didn't gain any weight but my lifts really took off. It was because i had enough mass then to really push my lifts up. It's quite possible if i had started a 3rd cycle of RSR then, instead of cutting, i would have maintained my bodyweight and put my lifts up into respectable territory, 165kg beltless, 180kg belted, 150kg front squat, etc.  And that would have been awesome, but i really needed to get the cut started.

So I did, even though i wasn't strong enough for my purposes to be cutting. Ideally my belted would be around 190kg, my beltless 170kg, and front squat 155-160kg or so. At which point I could just maintain my worksets and maxes while cutting, which is easier than what I actually ended up attempting which was to put 10kg on my lifts. But that didn't work out at all. Instead i've gotten weaker, a lot. But merely maintaining my lifts at end of RSR2 would not have been that great anyway which is why I tried to do more than that.

Right now at 90kg, i could probably maintain my bodyweight, and get back to my previous PRs, but to exceed them i'd have to gain a kilo or two. That wouldn't really win me anything though, considering i'm too heavy to do anything awesome with the strength. So i'll keep cutting, i'll be under 15% soon, and hopefully when i cross  under 85kg, ideally 83kg or so, i'll be close enough to 10% (maybe as high as 12-13%) to stop actively cutting and start to eat more food and do a lot more training. I'd be working hard initially to get my lifts up though. But while maintaining my bodyweight.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1632 on: February 10, 2014, 01:27:09 am »
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I disagree with not bulking or cutting and just maintaining a low bodyfat. That would have been around 75kg for me, how strong can I be at that bodyweight? No chance of front squatting 150kg, some chance of backsquatting 150kg but that's about it. Could I have got more athleticism out of that bodyweight by switching to RFD work. Possibly, but it's not like i was in danger of cleaning 140kg being that weak. If my front squat is around 160kg, and i'm lean and strong, there is a chance of having a decent clean, maybe not 140kg, maybe 120kg. But at 75kg i doubt I could clean over 100kg! Guys remember even at 90kg, i'm not super muscular, i have barely begun to get big enough to move heavy iron. If i was 8% at 90kg, maybe i would be just doing RFD work right now and just beasting.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1633 on: February 10, 2014, 03:27:09 am »
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Yes but subjecting yourself to RFD work still counts as muscle damage and that muscle must be repaired and grows, so even with a lower time under tension doing explosive work - you can still get very strong. It won't be displayed in the gym, it will be displayed on the actual field.

And if you're an athlete and not a powerlifter, then that's what you should care about.

I know people in the track and field camp that barely squat with too much volume or intensity, yet if you take them out of their never ending plyometric world of bounding and hurdle jumping and long jumping and sprinting and put them in the gym for a few weeks they will start to display amazing strength due to all that plyo work that they have been doing.

It works the other way around too - if strength (squat) work can improve jumping, then jumping and sprinting and bounding can improve the squat. Why? Because they both improve strength. It's just that one does it faster and is less specific while the other does it "slower" but is more specific.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

AGC

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1634 on: February 10, 2014, 05:46:02 am »
+1
I disagree with not bulking or cutting and just maintaining a low bodyfat. That would have been around 75kg for me, how strong can I be at that bodyweight? No chance of front squatting 150kg, some chance of backsquatting 150kg but that's about it. Could I have got more athleticism out of that bodyweight by switching to RFD work. Possibly, but it's not like i was in danger of cleaning 140kg being that weak. If my front squat is around 160kg, and i'm lean and strong, there is a chance of having a decent clean, maybe not 140kg, maybe 120kg. But at 75kg i doubt I could clean over 100kg! Guys remember even at 90kg, i'm not super muscular, i have barely begun to get big enough to move heavy iron. If i was 8% at 90kg, maybe i would be just doing RFD work right now and just beasting.

Well, this discussion is only happening because you're saying what you're doing isn't working. Maybe for you, both the cut and the bulk are happening over too short a time-frame for any practical use. A 150kg HBBS and 100kg clean would be very respectable numbers at 75kgs, by the way.