Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 1467389 times)

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entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1425 on: December 18, 2013, 02:33:42 am »
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Last squat session I taped what i thought was a technically crisp set of warmups

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Y8YxEs_Y8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Y8YxEs_Y8</a>

Broz had something interesting to say about the 3rd point you made - if you can squat perfectly with light weights, then it's not a matter of mobility or flexibility it's one of strength. He says a lot of simple yet profound stuff like this which subtly blows your mind!

There isn't a point using only light weights just to have perfect form. That's not an acceptable trade-off to me. Being weak and technically perfect doesn't help you become more athletic. Better to be strong and technically impefect. I know when I first squat 180kg it will be with a belted squatmorning. I'm ok with that. It will serve a purpose for improving my athletic ability. Separate to this is a concern for perfect form which is a persistent struggle for the long term. I've improved my technique considerably over time and i'll keep doing so as long as I can. I also know what you can do with really light weights with a particular technique might not be possible with a heavier one. Whether or not the first technique is superior or not, it's hard to say because with light weights you can use any technique you like since the weight can be ignored.
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LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1426 on: December 18, 2013, 10:16:09 pm »
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those are some good-looking squats.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1427 on: December 19, 2013, 12:38:31 am »
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Thanks. Thinking I need more strength in the right positions to maintain crisp form for heavier weights too. That's why I have high hopes for squatmornings. A really heavy squatmorning capability improves my strength across the board. The organism strength as Raptor called it. And this will carry over to normal squats (fronts & back). I have a rough plan for the future that involves maintaining a decent SqM, FS and BS max by regularly hitting it in training -- but doing a majority of my squatting with reps of lighter weight to patiently build strength in the positions lacking it.
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Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1428 on: December 19, 2013, 05:06:56 am »
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It depends on what you mean by squatmornings (how bad would they be) and how often you'd do them. If they're very bad and you do them often, then you're going to:

1) Program yourself to execute faulty mechanics
2) Not gain any leg strength
3) Subject yourself to increased injury risks

You make the call.

There's a reason we want to do perfect-form squats - because they have their targets, and these targets are what we want to improve while also staying safe.

What you're proposing, to me, is like saying you're going to do half squats because you can use more weight, and no other argument than that. Or that you should use a bent-back deadlift form because you're going to lift more. And so on.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1429 on: December 19, 2013, 09:35:41 am »
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I do a total of 2-3 squatmorning reps very heavy (> 1RM BS) on heavy squat sessions. Heavy sessions occur 2x a week or 1x a week, alternating. So frequency and volume isn't high. I would not do more than 1 rep sets of SqM because i'm wary of grooving the movement too much.

I am not worried about gaining leg strength from SqM because that's not what they're being used for - building posterior chain strength. I get my leg strength work from backsquat worksets. I keep front squats in, but very little volume, basically just a few warmups and that's it. That seems enough to keep the movement pattern intact and my leg strength keeps going up thanks to backsquats so i'm not worried about that at all.

There is always an injury risk with training heavy. Not really worried about that. I've had my share of injuries, and they can happen with any exercise. For instance, I hurt my back from front squatting, when everyone says they're safer for the back!

The benefits of the SqM have been apparent already. My back is stronger, as are my glutes and hamstrings and I don't get as much lower back doms as I used to from volume squatting. It's a sign i'm on the right track -- fixing weak points and bringing them up using a different exercise from my usual staples. My thighs are visibly bigger and thicker too. Erectors are much more prominent and thicker too.

Tomorrow i'll put up a video of my SqM 160kg PR attempt so you can see and judge for yourself.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 09:37:25 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1430 on: December 20, 2013, 02:24:01 am »
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Ate way too much today for lunch and breakfast. Hit up a buffet with my brother and cousin. Haven't been this full in a longgg time. Going to wait til it gets cooler before gyming. I had an ok night of sleep as well, around 8 hours but i woke up feeling ordinary nevertheless. Let's see how it goes. Should be a fun session in the gym. Hungry for PRs.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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chasing athleticism -- RSR-W2D3
« Reply #1431 on: December 20, 2013, 06:54:05 am »
+1
Training
FS 1x137.5
SqM 1x160 (PR)
BS 1x152.5 (PR), 4x5x130 (PR)
BP 2x97.5 (PR), 1x100 (PR)
CU 2x3xBW (new exercise; started conservatively)
CND - 40 mins basketball practice

Bodyweight: 95kg / 209lb

FS notes:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OViKut7byLg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OViKut7byLg</a>

Ok. I had perfect form on the 100kg warmups. They looked as pretty as my video from the previous page. Unfortunately the double with 125kg after that didn't feel as pretty although it looked OK - not picture perfect as the previous set though.

SqM notes:
Oh man, the topset today was dirty as fuck. I don't want to be that dirty, the 157.5kg pr from monday was much nicer. I dunno. I guess i'll repeat 160kg until it's clean enough before I even think of adding weight. But i wasn't super strong today so perhaps it was an anomaly?

BS notes:
These were brutal. 5s always are for me :/ Cunted but got thru 4 sets as planned. I would like to have nicer form on the last 2 reps but i wasn't able to today. I figured out why my form breaks down, it's cause my quads aren't recovered/fresh/strong to launch me up on the ascent. Which sucks cause it can ruin form so easily and turn it into an exercise that isn't any longer a leg dominant one.

BP notes:
Have stalled :( Really want to get 3x100 but it's not happening. Bother. I was hoping to switch focus to OHP and/or chinups once I get the goal. You know what, fuck it, i'll start chinups today anyway. It might even get me unstuck.

Conditioning Notes:
That's probably the first time i've worked up a sweat, lost my breathe in months. I mean i've been playing 3pt-line pickup but such was the pace that it wasn't even mildly aerobic. This was different. I feel good. I think i enjoy this more than playing with other ppl - less chance of injury from playing with uncoordinated fools. I'll work hard each time and build up my conditioning and skills - awesome.

I just wanna make a note in passing that this was the first time i shot around in my new shoes. Oh man i'm such a better shooter when i'm wearing shoes that fit, these being closer to my size. Apparently the 2-3 sizes too big that i usually wear fuck up my shot too much. I feel so much more compact and smooth on jumpshot ascent now. I was hitting my shoots sweetly too. Interesting. I also found it better to move around laterally.

2 weeks down, just 1 volume workout left for the first half of RSR which is on weds. Sould have plenty of time including the weekend to rest up and get my batteries charged up. Rx is 6x6x130kg. I will prob go for 4x6x130, and possibly a 5th set but probably not.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 02:11:01 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1432 on: December 20, 2013, 08:52:20 am »
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Question for my basketball buddies -- i'd realised i don't use my strengths during gametime. I mean i'm a double leg jumper but in games i go off my feeble 1 leg. Is there a strategy to getting enough space or setting up a double leg jump for moves etc? I am asking generally from defense to offence. Would like to transition to a powerful 2 leg game throughout to get the maximum amount of carryover from strength training to sports.
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vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1433 on: December 20, 2013, 09:36:14 am »
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^Easy, change postition to PF/C, you'll be doing SVJs and dropsteps all day long at both ends of the court. As for DLRVJs, i guess you have to be able to accelerate/gather/jump naturally off the dribble to do it at drives, like Westbrook, VC etc. I wouldn't know though, i have not been able to do it without travelling even when practicing for it alone. The only way i have done DLRVJs in real game situations was not off the dribble, but cutting: Recieve the pass while running (which is your runup ), power dribble ( which is your penultimate step ), jump.
Just 2c, i bet ChrisM has a lot more to offer here ;)
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

ChrisM

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1434 on: December 20, 2013, 06:30:24 pm »
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Someone rang? :D

Vag hit on a few good points, post play and 'natural' accel/plant/jumping. I don't think it's 100% natural (although obviously some cases are, see Vinsanity) though. I'd lean more towards a learned behavior. It's repetition on top of repetition from years of doing it in game environments. It becomes second nature after all that practice. Even with that said I bet there's tons of game footage of Westbrook/VC going off one foot. I do A LOT in ges. Why? Its quicker. Sometimes it's not about how high you get as much as it is how quickly you can get there. My best advice is lots of practice.

The move towards post play would definitely play towards your strengths as well. I'll  post up again later,dinner time lol
Insert motivational quote here...

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1435 on: December 21, 2013, 12:34:44 am »
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Thanks vag. Some good ideas there. I want some more from you! I agree with you on the travelling point. I was trying to practice yesterday by myself with 2 leg jumps but the only way I can make them work is if I 'catch' the ball in a jumpstop (2 foot landing - can pivot off either foot) then i can take one step (drop?) and go up for a shot or layup or whatever. Actually that's probably illegal in FIBA rules because you have to dribble first? Yeah so do that with one dribble  - can do that pretty powerfully I found.. Just re-read your last sentences and that's exactly what you've described too. But i can't take more than 1 step because i believe it will get travelled more often than not. At least in my head it feels like a straight up travel although i dont know if that's /actually/ the case. The game is so biased for one leg jumping.

ChrisM thanks. I have about a 10" difference between my one leg jump and double one. Speed difference exists too. I can accelerate powerfully off 2 - and feebly off 1. I'm so much more powerful off 2 legs even though my natural game is to play off 1 leg - that's still my instinctive style because i was always a one leg jumper. It's just from squatting i become a powerful double leg jumper when I never used to be one. So now my basketball game has to evolve to take advantage of that, because i'm quite slow and unreactive/unathletic and to not use my strength is a big mistake I feel.

I should probably bring my one leg vertical up though. I mean there is no reason it is still languishing in the low 20s. But in between all the squatting I do, i haven't had the recovery to burn towards sprints which would build my plyometric ability. I should do that though and get my 1leg jump to high 20s, that would make a nice difference. Although my double leg will probably still be much higher even then so i should still be a mostly double foot player and occasionally 1 foot one.

Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1436 on: December 22, 2013, 11:22:03 pm »
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I really wish I had started doing standing barbell calf raises sooner. I can think of no better way to familiarise yourself with having a supramax weight on your back for a long set of calf raises where you are ballistically accelerating it on every rep. I  wonder if I had been doing them all along would I have got my 160kg PR on the last cycle of RSR? My lower legs are a lot weaker than my relatively massive quads and hams. Have since learnt from all the strong squatters on this site though. They're all heavy calf raisers.

 I used 10x180kg for the first time on calf raises last week, and this week i'll go for 2x15x190kg and so on. It may or may not build my calves just yet but it will get me used to having that weight on my back so when time comes to heavy squatting i'll be better prepared. A good goal i feel is 2x20x200+kg, where bw+bar-weight ≥ 300kg.

I just wanted to mention in passing, my abs have gotten stronger somehow very quickly. Even sitting at the desk i can contract them so forcefully now. Weird becuase I thought as a beltless front squatter i had already got decent abs. But belted squat mornings may to be blame for my new ab strength - parodoxically.

I am running out of time to get in shape for bball. Have just under 4 months left now. I can probably get down to 80kg bw if i start dieting asap. But i want to get thru the last volume workout (on weds) before cutting earnestly. I really really want a 170kg squat @ 98kg or so though.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1437 on: December 23, 2013, 03:07:57 am »
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One of the main reasons some strong people suck at one leg jumping is because they let their calves "fall behind". The calves are less adaptable in terms of strength gains and if you gain weight, gain quad mass, gain glute mass, get hamstring mass, you name it, and get "strong" (while also getting heavier), you will have a higher relative squat to bodyweight ratio but you will collapse in a high speed one-leg jump plant because the calves are the ones that didn't grow at the same rate.

And since that happened, then you will experience ankle collapse that will feel like the quads are giving out or the knee itself gives out.

So it's a bit counter intuitive because you'll think the quads aren't doing their job, when in reality the quads are overloaded by the ankle collapse.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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chasing athleticism -- RSR-W3D1
« Reply #1438 on: December 23, 2013, 05:53:58 am »
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Training
FS 1x135
BS 2x6x130
CURLZ 2x12x30

FS notes:
Using 135kg for a light day is kinda cool, no?

BS notes:
My quads were singing today. Which means they were clean reps. So that's good. Hope quads are nice and fresh for weds!

I will call monday curl day from now on and calf raise on weds. Commiting to this for at least a year. Lets see if i can put some meat on my calves and biceps. Will help me a lot in basketball too.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1439 on: December 23, 2013, 07:27:31 am »
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One of the main reasons some strong people suck at one leg jumping is because they let their calves "fall behind". The calves are less adaptable in terms of strength gains and if you gain weight, gain quad mass, gain glute mass, get hamstring mass, you name it, and get "strong" (while also getting heavier), you will have a higher relative squat to bodyweight ratio but you will collapse in a high speed one-leg jump plant because the calves are the ones that didn't grow at the same rate.

And since that happened, then you will experience ankle collapse that will feel like the quads are giving out or the knee itself gives out.

So it's a bit counter intuitive because you'll think the quads aren't doing their job, when in reality the quads are overloaded by the ankle collapse.

I have a feeling you might be onto something there. It actually explains a few things i've noticed over the years. When i got my first dunk it was off 1 leg as a weak skinny basketball player in my early 20s with zero gym experience. At the time I remember i used to play a lot of ball and i did a fair amount of long distance running  (< 5km) as well. This would have made my calves strong and elastic.

Fast forward 10 years and last summer I cut down to a similar bodyweight but this time i have a fair bit of squatting under my belt. Nothing earth shattering, i was maintaining a 120kg front squat max at a bodyweight of 75kg. This is 1.6xbw. I can jump pretty well off 2. But off one, i'm not dunking (not that i tried very hard but just saying it was so effortless to dunk off 2 in comparison). Perhaps if I had devoted myself to calf training then i would have seen a decent increase my in my 1 leg jump -- and -- general basketball ability which is very dependent on 1-leg ability.

I can't really do much about the past, except to learn from my mistakes. I will dedicate myself to calf training seriously and see where it takes me. Perhaps when my bodyweight converges on an athletically ideal 80kg or so - and my absolute leg and posterior strength on the magic ratios above 2xbw - and the milestone of 4 plates behind, my calves this time will also be stronger and bigger - will i see better performance in both single and double limb movements? It is something I look forward to testing come mid april.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat