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^True, but it is easy to stop being weak while it is impossible to stop having bad/mediocre structure. No shit sherlock. You know , i know , we all know. We all train strength AND bounce trying to find balance between fixing weaknesses and emphasizing qualities. The reason i insist on this is not for the shake of the argument, i think we all agree ( with slight perception differences ). The reason i insist is the case someone reading this is new at jump training, it should be heard clear that strength is a much more trainable quality than bounce and a much better bet for vert improvement. And right now, as Avishek was away from the pc doing something totally irrelevant, his head still exploded! 

Few things...

First I really like what Toddday said, that's a very sound way to make sure you aren't wasting energy being inefficient. 

Second, thanks LBSS but I don't think I'm overly gifted at all.

me neither.  i was just trying to think who on here actually jumps high right now while not looking sluggish doing it. also, ian, gp about rutgersdunker, guess i hadn't watched his dunk/jump vids in a while. whatever, it was a sidebar anyway.

And lastly I don't think agility has a direct correlation to 'springiness' or 'bounce'. It can certainly help if you're naturally like that as it points to some positive structural/neural tendencies that with training would help your vert but I know lots of guys that can stop on a dime or change direction instantly that can't fly. Tony Parker comes to mind or the professor or hot sauce. My friend I'm training with as well, he changes directions in an instant but his vert is 10-12" lower than mine.

i'd agree with this

Maybe that bouncy look is what you get from doing it (jumping) all the time. Ex: most NBA guys appear bouncier than a NFL guy but a quick glance at combine numbers shows that the vert for skill position football players blows away a ton of NBA guys verts. The basketball guys just have a more esthetically pleasing jump. Just my observatiosns of course.

exactly. the point is that "springy" is just an aesthetic judgment about how someone looks when they jump. but it says something about how they get up. an nfl guy is likely to be much more powerful than an nba player because he has to be stronger and heavier to play his sport at that level than the nba guy does. but that's not to say there aren't some nfl guys who aren't springy or nba guys who aren't powerful. it probably has a lot to do with body structure and biomechanics. you can affect the latter to a point but you can't make your legs longer.

Good discussion.   A few points. 

Quote from: ChrisM on December 04, 2013, 12:33:55 am

Quote

And lastly I don't think agility has a direct correlation to 'springiness' or 'bounce'. It can certainly help if you're naturally like that as it points to some positive structural/neural tendencies that with training would help your vert but I know lots of guys that can stop on a dime or change direction instantly that can't fly. Tony Parker comes to mind or the professor or hot sauce. My friend I'm training with as well, he changes directions in an instant but his vert is 10-12" lower than mine.

i'd agree with this

Using sports performance as a measure of athleticism is always a poor idea.  They are related but always a combination of skill and reactivity.  Lionel Messi looks ridiculously quick to me, but I have no idea if that's 70% skill and 30% reactivity.    Even wide receivers can make up for a large amount of speed/reactivity and appear quick if they are masters of route running.   There are so many easier ways.  IMO the simplest skill wise is just multiple two legged bounds vs repeated broad jumps.

Quote from: ChrisM on December 04, 2013, 12:33:55 am

Maybe that bouncy look is what you get from doing it (jumping) all the time. Ex: most NBA guys appear bouncier than a NFL guy but a quick glance at combine numbers shows that the vert for skill position football players blows away a ton of NBA guys verts. The basketball guys just have a more esthetically pleasing jump. Just my observatiosns of course.

exactly. the point is that "springy" is just an aesthetic judgment about how someone looks when they jump. but it says something about how they get up. an nfl guy is likely to be much more powerful than an nba player because he has to be stronger and heavier to play his sport at that level than the nba guy does. but that's not to say there aren't some nfl guys who aren't springy or nba guys who aren't powerful. it probably has a lot to do with body structure and biomechanics. you can affect the latter to a point but you can't make your legs longer.

I'd be careful using NBA combine numbers.  Ty Lawson and Demar Derozon are both listed as 29 inch verticals.  I can tell you watching Deron train in college...  No way that number is legit.  Seeing Ty Lawson wind up and dunk on the Lakers once... I don't think his max running vertical is 36 inches either.   You have to understand that the NFL combine is a make or break event where millions of dollars are earned or lost.  Players train exclusively for each event and then try and peak during testing.  NBA players are drafted 99% on game tape.  Derek Rose would have been the first pick had his vertical been 18 inches.  Everyone new he could jump because they saw what he did to the rim and it is always 10 feet!  It's not like college football where you could look fast because of good offensive line and slow defenders in your conference so it isn't taken seriously by most of the players and comparing a half hearted vertical jump by an NBA guy to a somewhat cheated vertical at an NFL combine does not make sense.   

^True, but it is easy to stop being weak while it is impossible to stop having bad/mediocre structure. No shit sherlock. You know , i know , we all know. We all train strength AND bounce trying to find balance between fixing weaknesses and emphasizing qualities. The reason i insist on this is not for the shake of the argument, i think we all agree ( with slight perception differences ). The reason i insist is the case someone reading this is new at jump training, it should be heard clear that strength is a much more trainable quality than bounce and a much better bet for vert improvement.

I don't totally agree with this.  Reactivity or springiness is not just a result of structure.   Additionally strength training may be easier to improve as far as weight room numbers but you can't promise carryover....  I think this advice is great for the guy who traditionally wants to increase his vertical jump.... the basketball junky.  The guy who plays 5 hours of pickup ball a day and is constantly trying to throw lobs to himself during the time between pick up games.  That guy needs to get in the weight room.   But for a guy like LBSS who isn't really a basketball player it's REALLY important for him to do some actual jumping and get more springy/reactive.  Reactivity is a consequence of structure, strength, and coordination!   Strength and coordination can certainly be improved.  I explained the physics of reactivity on depth jumps already with Avishek but in a nutshell with strength and coordination you can get better at storing force for longer (so you have more time to produce force yourself) AND storing more force.  I'm not much of a jumper but after the track season ended last year I spent about 3 weeks jumping 3 times per week.   I went from 2-3 inches away from hitting my head on the 9'2'' backboard at 5'10.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFqQrh6xid8

Raptor pointed out to me that I was jumping by first planting my left foot and then rapidly swinging and planting my right.  This increased coordination allowed me to jump a lot higher.   Observing LBSS his approach jumps of more than 2-3 steps all resulted in stutter steps and then 2 step jumps.  So while he could complain about his lack of ability to 7 step jump.... He actually hadn't yet acquired the skill to a seven step jump.  IMO that's the quickest bang for his buck. 

So I think springiness is also somewhat closely related to being "light". If you're born with thick bones and thick tendons and you're naturally heavy but you have the proper structure in terms of tension distribution, levers etc, you can still be "bouncy" (think a guy like LeBron or Barkley being very heavy and still being somewhat bouncy, being able to jump off one leg well etc).

That's a pretty good point.  It's a lot easier to be reactive when you are "light" where light is dependent on your body type.   Entropy looks lumbering at his current weight despite the fact that he weighs less than me and is like 5 inches taller. 

^Correct! To be fair with toddday my last post could be misread easily. I was referring to noobs, that is the key. LBSS is a guy that has already strength trained for years to reach 2*BW, he was not part of my argument. If i may rephrase it, it would be "You need to have a good strength foundation before starting to worry about ways to express it better".
Yeah, if i ever say that you don't need to jump when trying to improve jumping, please ban me from this site! 

Training
BS 1x150, 0Fx160, 0Fx155
BBALL ~1hr
BP 3x95 (PR)

BS notes:
I was running late for basketball so I had to rush everything but still managed to be really late anyways. I have to say a few things - my choice of weights was probably wrong, i must admit in hindsight. I could have given it a lot more consideration. For instance. If my 1RM is 155-157.5kg then I shouldn't have done a single with 150kg first. It's too close to the max that it causes enough fatigue to prevent a successful PR attempt. But. It seemed like a jump from 140kg to 160kg was too steep. that's why I went for the intermediate 150kg. In hindsight my last warmup shuda been around 145kg only.

I'm pretty gutted at failing what I thought was an ideal end to the program -- 160kg max would have been sick. Unfortunately lack of sleep and having a cold and playing too much basketball on the last week cost me my goal PR.

Looking at the video now, i had it pretty controlled into the hole, came out of the hole ok. And i just couldn't get past the sticking point. I hate that about my squatting - i either get a rep strongly or fail. I don't have the opportunity to grind out a heavy 1RM like most ppl.

Basketball:
Pickup ball has been ramping up, i worked up a decent heart rate today. And hit a lot of my jumpers. To the point where leaving me open for a midrange was a defensive error costing points against. So that's the only good thing about training today. Otherwise very ordinary.

BP notes:
I did the cgbp today AFTER playing basketball. I think on a fresh day i could triple 97.5-100? I really want to get to 100kg just for the milestone then i'll work towards a 120kg max which is an awesome uperbody goal (to/for me). Surprisingly i'm being beginning to grow what appears to be pecs! I wonder what the next 10kg will bring? So exciting. Til very recently I had no visible pecs, just man boobs.

---

I feel pretty terrible about missing 160kg.  I didn't even get a chance to weigh my fat ass so i dunno what bw was. Doesn't matter. Next week, new program. I am also putting an end to the unlimited eating. I am so sick of eating food now, i have turned myself off eating. Looking forward to eating less as of tomorrow onwards.

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My new goal going forward is a 170kg backsquat @ bodyweight of 85kg. My plan for getting is quite obvious to me after my stint with the RSR. I'll just restart RSR with 130kg. The only difference is i'll try to bump up my 1 rep PR by 1-2.5kg every week, so i wont be going 6 weeks before attempting a heavy PR again. Ie. i'm adapting RSR to my needs. I will also be capping volume to under 25 reps, no 6x6s this time around while on a caloric deficit. Oh and basketball takes precedence so i'll have to be really smart about recovery. But yeah thie job is only half done. I need to get the 2xbw BS out of the way asap, it's the easiest most trivial goal I am embarassed not to have done yet.

---

Also, sad day today. Rip to a fallen soldier, original OG, Mandela. Grew up looking up to him, we will miss him.

Quote from: vag on December 05, 2013, 03:58:57 am

^Correct! To be fair with toddday my last post could be misread easily. I was referring to noobs, that is the key. LBSS is a guy that has already strength trained for years to reach 2*BW, he was not part of my argument. If i may rephrase it, it would be "You need to have a good strength foundation before starting to worry about ways to express it better".
Yeah, if i ever say that you don't need to jump when trying to improve jumping, please ban me from this site! 

Vag, are you saying that people who aren't strong yet shouldn't do any power exercises (jump squats or reactive squats or depth jumps) and just focus on squatting and jumping? I'm doing squatting, power exercises, and lots of jumping right now, and I'm not that strong yet.

I'm not sure what Vag would say to this but I'll answer with my take on this.   This is *somewhat* true.  It is "more true" when talking about a two footed jump than a one footed jump.   However, the big problem with this is that being "not strong yet" is REALLY nebulous.  I cringe every time I hear someone say you shouldn't start plyos until you can squat 2x bodyweight or some made up rule.   There are MANY high jumpers who cannot squat close to 2x bodyweight but can jump over 7ft.  Any coach who thinks the key to getting a few more inches out of them is to have them stick to squats and not expression of strength is an idiot.   It's sort of a circular argument but the fact that they jump 7ft means that they are not weak!   

So that's the answer in a nutshell...  That advice is somewhat sound (again moreso for bilateral jumping) given that you don't use a simple definition (like bw to squat ratio) to determine whether you are strong/weak.   Personally, since it's difficult to determine whether someone is strong/weak I would favor the following approach.   First get an your athlete somewhat coordinated at reactive jumping/movement.  Get his movement efficiency to where you can accurately asses his ability to jump.   Depending on the athletes background this can take a long time.  IMO you may be "weak" but it's really not priority #1 until you are at least coordinated enough for it to matter.   Otherwise you end up deciding your weak and adding a bunch strength that doesn't carryover.   The same needs to be done with weight training but the time required to build coordination doesn't take as long in the worst case.   The initial gains in your squat will be all movement efficiency and won't translate to much.   Anyway only after the athlete is coordinated and reactive enough for his weakness to carryover should strength training really be the focus.    True novices will often be really weak and unreactive.   However, IMO from a performance standpoint they will be less reactive than they are weak; and so this should be the first priority; otherwise you risk turning them into a buff uncoordinated slob.   The exception is of course athletes who don't strength train.  If you have played a skill position in football your entire life but haven't lifted weights and now want to focus on vertical jumping.... You probably are weak but reactive enough for strength training to really make a difference.   There are a million tests to figure out if your athlete is weak/strong reactive/unreactive but they all may require some time for coordiation to be learned.   Bottom test BOTH attributes before you proceed.   



 

As for what Today is saying, I totally agree. It's like driving a car. First you need to learn to drive a car. A slow car is good for that. It's better (in a way) to start weak and start getting coordinated. If you're strong and you're not coordinated and you start applying a lot of power in an uncoordinated movement you can more easily get injured.

Then as you learned to drive this slow car you can start working on upgrading the engine (strength train). And then once you have this faster engine you can start working on trying to drive the car faster, as the new engine allows that to happen.

Played ball again lolz. Was a lot more explosive today jumping. But on that end of the court the rim is low so it's not really anything special. I am going to try the Broz approach of embracing the dark times. Perhaps i'll adapt and come out of it ok.