Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 1463359 times)

LBSS · « **Reply #1350 on:** December 03, 2013, 12:37:57 pm »

having seen a short clip of you jumping, i doubt that you do get 4" more from a full run up than a three-step run up. or if you do, you're doing the three-step wrong. you look like me, medium-efficient and medium-fast, better than entropy (though we're short and so can't dunk) or vag but not exactly smooth or springy or fast. you jump maybe an inch higher than i do right now.

try to work your way out from a drop-step one day and see if you really do get any benefit from the steps you take before the final two or three.

ian459 · « **Reply #1351 on:** December 03, 2013, 01:17:49 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on December 03, 2013, 12:37:57 pm

having seen a short clip of you jumping, i doubt that you do get 4" more from a full run up than a three-step run up. or if you do, you're doing the three-step wrong. you look like me, medium-efficient and medium-fast, better than entropy (though we're short and so can't dunk) or vag but not exactly smooth or springy or fast. you jump maybe an inch higher than i do right now.

try to work your way out from a drop-step one day and see if you really do get any benefit from the steps you take before the final two or three.

Yea, I'm still trying to improve my run up. I have a much faster run up when I'm not thinking too hard about it. Is springiness a quality that can be learned? Or is it just based on how high you jump? Ex: A person with a over a 40'' vert will always look springy.

LBSS · « **Reply #1352 on:** December 03, 2013, 02:55:50 pm »

no it's not based on jump height, although springy people tend to jump higher. kingfish jumps 40" but looks slow as fuck, he's just very powerful. same for chris hickson when he was around. dreyth, but less so. some people are naturally springy and others aren't, a lot is based on genetic things like body structure, tendon length, and so on. people like you and me have a lower ceiling than people like, uh, actually most of the gifted two-leg jumpers on here are gone (taylorhorton, rip, rutgersdunker). chris m and matt a come to mind, i guess. but none of those guys has the springs that taylorhorton had, or certainly that rutgersdunker has. that dude is an animal.

but we can definitely improve movement efficiency, grace, speed, and power. no doubt about it. adarq went from touching rim to dunking off one leg, which is truly awesome and frankly a big part of why i'm still going at this.

will just make it that much more satisfying when we finally do throw down.

vag · « **Reply #1353 on:** December 03, 2013, 03:05:53 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on December 03, 2013, 10:11:12 am

one thing t0ddday told me about when we trained together a couple months back was "earning" the steps. so for high jumpers, they're only allowed to take a run-up out to the number of steps where they get diminishing returns. if you don't jump any higher from two steps than one, you only get two. when your two-step jump is better than your one-step jump, you get three, and so on.

Brilliant, just brilliant!!!

Quote from: ian459 on December 03, 2013, 01:17:49 pm

Is springiness a quality that can be learned? Or is it just based on how high you jump? Ex: A person with a over a 40'' vert will always look springy.

Yes it is trainable quality. It is arguable to what extent it is, but it is. Plyos and explosive lifts ( jump squats, speed squats, o-lifts ) is the way. And obviously ( but very often neglected ), if you want to improve your RVJ efficiency you need to train your RVJ itself more than anything. Some great stuff about plyometric ability, how much it can be improved and how, here: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/plyomyths.html
No, i don't believe it is directly related to the inches you can jump. Your 40+ example is extreme, indeed i doubt that you can reach 40+ without having your bounce up to par, unless you are some kind of freak that can just power-jump 40+ ( inb4, kf ). But to get down to the real world, you can see entropy looking terribly slow and clumsy while he jumps ~35'' ( rough estimation ). Myself and LBSS have reached 35'' too at some point, but our runups looked bad ( mine VERY bad ). So n=3 already. Agree with LBSS, keep improving what you can, that's the only way.

Edit:
About rutgersdunker, not doubting his bounce at all, but if i could choose to have a quality of his, it would not be his bounce:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKmw4hGCbwA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKmw4hGCbwA</a>

LBSS · « **Reply #1354 on:** December 03, 2013, 04:31:15 pm »

entropy is ~6'4 in shoes so i'd guess his reach is ~8'1 (5" taller than me and long-limbed, give him 7" extra reach). he's getting say 4" below his wrist on the last jump there. so...actually yeah that's about 33". looking slow. fuck.

edit: between squatting and jumping i'd go with jumping in a heartbeat. but yeah, he's a beast, we all know it.

Raptor · « **Reply #1355 on:** December 03, 2013, 04:46:29 pm »

Then go the adarqui route: anorexic dunking!

ian459 · « **Reply #1356 on:** December 03, 2013, 05:18:09 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on December 03, 2013, 02:55:50 pm

no it's not based on jump height, although springy people tend to jump higher. kingfish jumps 40" but looks slow as fuck, he's just very powerful. same for chris hickson when he was around. dreyth, but less so. some people are naturally springy and others aren't, a lot is based on genetic things like body structure, tendon length, and so on. people like you and me have a lower ceiling than people like, uh, actually most of the gifted two-leg jumpers on here are gone (taylorhorton, rip, rutgersdunker). chris m and matt a come to mind, i guess. but none of those guys has the springs that taylorhorton had, or certainly that rutgersdunker has. that dude is an animal.

but we can definitely improve movement efficiency, grace, speed, and power. no doubt about it. adarq went from touching rim to dunking off one leg, which is truly awesome and frankly a big part of why i'm still going at this.

will just make it that much more satisfying when we finally do throw down.

Does being quick (being able to change directions extremely fast, able to maneuver short distances extremely quickly) have anything to do with springiness? I'm thinking springiness is just looking athletic.

Mikey · « **Reply #1357 on:** December 03, 2013, 05:29:10 pm »

Springiness is basically bounce but I'm not sure whether there would be a correlation between bounce and agility.

Raptor · « **Reply #1358 on:** December 03, 2013, 06:09:45 pm »

Springiness is the expression of strength on the right body structure to be expressed as springiness.

ian459 · « **Reply #1359 on:** December 03, 2013, 07:55:19 pm »

I looked through some old videos. RutgersDunker doesn't seem that springy? He seems to get up extremely high with all that strength and power. Same with adarqui and Kingfish. RutgersDunker looks a lot smoother and more "athletic" though.

This is another guy that gets up with pure strength. He does squat 3x bodyweight at 5'7 though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6ZnghUUKOw

ChrisM · « **Reply #1360 on:** December 04, 2013, 12:33:55 am »

Few things...

First I really like what Toddday said, that's a very sound way to make sure you aren't wasting energy being inefficient.

Second, thanks LBSS but I don't think I'm overly gifted at all.

And lastly I don't think agility has a direct correlation to 'springiness' or 'bounce'. It can certainly help if you're naturally like that as it points to some positive structural/neural tendencies that with training would help your vert but I know lots of guys that can stop on a dime or change direction instantly that can't fly. Tony Parker comes to mind or the professor or hot sauce. My friend I'm training with as well, he changes directions in an instant but his vert is 10-12" lower than mine.

Maybe that bouncy look is what you get from doing it (jumping) all the time. Ex: most NBA guys appear bouncier than a NFL guy but a quick glance at combine numbers shows that the vert for skill position football players blows away a ton of NBA guys verts. The basketball guys just have a more esthetically pleasing jump. Just my observatiosns of course.

Raptor · « **Reply #1361 on:** December 04, 2013, 02:13:03 am »

Like I said, strength on the rightly structured body will look like springiness.

vag · « **Reply #1362 on:** December 04, 2013, 04:51:14 am »

Agree with raptor. Tbh i don't believe much in bounce. That's why i said i'd prefer rudger's strength over bounce, it was a 100% jump-related statement. Someone with huge relative strength and awful bounce will still jump damn high, maybe his RVJ will look terrible and will be only 1'' higher than his SVJ, but it will be 40-ish. Not the same case with someone with awesome bounce but weak. I also want to note that our n=1 gets too strong here. So i, with my old rusty degenerated joints, am expected to not believe in bounce much. I did (half)squat my way up from 24'' to 35'' anyway. LBSS who is a healthy fit lean 2*BW squatter but cant jump over 35'' would be the oposite example i guess, bounce is his last hope. What to do? Nothing new, keep improving everything we can.

So, entropy, you used to have a journal?

entropy · « **Reply #1363 on:** December 04, 2013, 06:40:51 am »

Training
FS omitted (!)
BS 2x6x120
BP 6x50, 6x60

FS notes:
Need my legs fresh for fridays max sesh so allowed da fronts. Btw my right quad has been unusually more sore. I think it's from all the jumping and basketball i've been playing -- which is cool cause i guess it shows up an imbalance or weakness that hopefully i'm correcting as I get better at SSC at this high bodyweight while eating a lot.

BS notes:
Why don't these ever seem so easy? Light day my ass.

Going to binge my way thru the rest of this week. I've decided to go for a 160kg max on friday. It should be do-able if I skip front again, do minimal upper body work today, and no basketball or jumping for the rest of the week. 2 sleeps + good diet + no training + restfulness should do the trick.

I just want to make a note in passing, while my legs have gotten a bit bigger on this squat program, it's my ass which has truly grown. I just shocked myself by looking in the mirror and seeing it after gyming. It must have happened overnight because I can swear I dont remember it being so prominent

Vag lol thanks! i don't mind at all, i'm happy for the free exchange of ideas and thoughts to take place here! It's been pretty interesting to read.

Raptor · « **Reply #1364 on:** December 04, 2013, 08:36:15 am »

Yeah but being bouncy (having good structure) is your winning lottery ticket for being able to jump high while still being weak.

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Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 1463359 times)

LBSS

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ian459

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LBSS

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vag

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LBSS

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Raptor

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ian459

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Mikey

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Raptor

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ian459

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ChrisM

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Raptor

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vag

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entropy

chasing athleticism -- RSR-W6D2

Raptor

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