Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 1464202 times)

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Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1245 on: October 02, 2013, 09:08:02 pm »
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I actually think this is a pretty simple issue.

Most really good ball players have been playing since they were what 5? They've probably had a ball in their hand ever since. The number of repititions they've done of the fundamental movements required to play ball would be astronomical. I know that from the age of 6-10 I trained no less than once per week and played once per week. From 11-20 I trained no less than twice a week and played no less than twice a week, often 3-4 games. And that's just team training and playing. Not to mention every lunch time at school through both primary and high school. I'm not going to add them up but that's a fuck load of hours spent honing and ingraining the skills. It's also years of being comfortable with contact and the closeness of other players which is what I see puts off a lot of guys who haven't played ball their whole life.

Now you obviously can't go back and start all over again but there's a couple of things I'd do if I was you:

- Skill training- ask someone else (ChrisM) on this area. My skills are good given the amount of practice I now do but that's largely off playing my whole like.
- Use your hips/bum- these guys that seem immovable have great hip strength and have learned to use their hips/bum to either block out or move their opponent to their advantage. If you've ever watched AFL think Chris Judd. Not the biggest guy out there but has great hip/core strength to be able to stand up in tackles and not get moved/shoved off the ball. As a big guy on the basketball court this skill is essential. 

My old man is great example of someone who can come late to the party and still be a great ball player. He started playing when he was 17 and not long after got a call up to play at a serious level. Turns out he was more interested in chasing skirt than making a career out of it. He would routinely drop 40-50 points, dunked maybe once in his life and wasn't the most athletic guy out there. What he did have was 2-3 go to moves. A turn around jumper from free throw range and a nice jump hook that I can remember. He was also a bit of a mongrel on the court (a fair mongrel but still a mongrel) and maybe that's part of what you're missing.

I hope that made some sense.
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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1246 on: October 02, 2013, 10:22:22 pm »
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^ see my post just before yours, not talking about skill but strength

you're imagining a dichotomy that's not there. sports strength like what you're talking about with the skinny little guy who can't be stripped IS skill. and that skill IS strength. they are the same. i'm not trying to be zen, that's just the way it is. no other measure than "can you take the ball from him when he's going to the hoop" is worth anything when you're measuring his strength at holding onto the ball when he's going to the hoop. i would bet $100 that the only "measurement" that correlates strongly would be something like how fast he can get through taylorhorton's dribbling complex.

edit: and if you took that guy and added barbell strength WHILE NOT ALLOWING HIS SKILLS TO DEGRADE, he would be even harder to take the ball from. but improving his ball handling even further obviously is not going to have a strong influence on his bench. as for what's appropriate for an individual's progression as a player, it depends on the individual. if i wanted to get better at basketball i'd be best-off dropping almost all of my weight room work and spending nearly all of my training time on the court. i'm reasonably strong but mediocre at basketball. if anthony davis wants to get better at basketball he should probably spend a bit more time working on his bench. he's skinny like a runway model but has breathtaking skills for someone his height.

I agree 100% with LBSS and Mutumbo on this one.  Your making up qualities that don't exist.  If you have ever done manual labor perhaps you have heard of something called "old-man strength".  That's the made up strength quality where your uncle can unscrew bolts and saw faster than you even though your stronger in the weight-room.   In reality there is not such thing as "old-man strength" it's just a combination of grip strength and labor skills that the young person hasn't developed.

There are two things going on here. 

1) As LBSS said the skinny guy who can't be stripped IS skillful to such a degree that you can't see it.  Perhaps he wraps the ball better in contact; perhaps he actually brings the ball down on his reverse layup with more precise timing, etc.   The effect is he is hard to strip, the cause is he has developed a lot more skill than the next guy.   His skill level at keeping the ball may be somewhat unconscious (eg he isn't thinking "let me cradle the ball strongest here on my spin move because this is where it's mostly likely poked out by the help defense") but it's a learned and develop skill, not a magical "strength hardness".   A few years ago we used to play a lot of pickup basketball after practice and since I look somewhat bigger than your average guy when I would jump into contact and score other players would say "weight room".   I don't know if they save that in Australia but it's an American colloqualism for when you score the ball essentially going through the other player.  What's funny is it has more to do with body mass, leverage, and skill than anything in the weight-room. 

2) As Mutumbo said.... There is just no replacement for toughness.   Unfortunately, this might be a bit harder for someone to acquire because you can practice all you want but you might not have toughness.  Toughness is really acquired pretty young; you can pretty much tell from an early age which kids have it and which kids don't.  Basically the kid with all the broken bones who doesn't seem to fear much socially or physically and is a bit crazy...   Usually only children/first children have less toughness and young girls are more cautious.  Exceptions to every rule.   One way to be tough is to just naturally not give a fuck or have a bunch of older brothers that beat the hell out of you all the time...  The thing about being fearless is it's a bit maladaptive...   I think the only way to really acquire toughness is to play a collision sport where you realize that you just have to let go and go absolutely crazy.  I didn't start playing football until high-school and I was pretty afraid to hit during drills because they coach was forced to make us watch tons of videos about spearing and paralysis so I tackled high with my head to the sky and and always received blows when tackling.   One day I was already moving full speed and somebody came out of no-where and I had little choice but to dip a shoulder and I was able to pancake the guy and continue running over him.  After that I realized the benefit of delivering the blow rather than receiving it and became somewhat addicted to tackling and started playing like the strongest guy on the field....

The confound here is described in point #2.   To some extent you can figure out "toughness/physicality".... but it's easier to figure it out if you are also bigger and stronger to begin with.  Throwing your body into the other player will almost always yield a better result than flinching and cowering... but if your really weak your gonna get wrecked and your glasses broken either way.... so you won't get as much positive feedback to inspire your toughness.  Perhaps your teammate complain that your soft.... But since you are tall and useful to the team they don't complain very loudly. 

The bottom line for you is to not go down any further the path which you have started.  No offense but I call this the typical "nerd" approach to sports.  They find that they have some disadvantage (example: "you get the ball stripped the other guy doesn't") and then they take an approach where they essentially say "Ok back to the lab to figure out how to model the problem and ameliorate this deficit"....   Then the waste a bunch of time doing shit like band bicep curls with my hands clasped to increase strength for ripping the ball through the lane...  This is the kind of idiocy that spawns things like bosu ball squats....

Don't waste your time... Yes, you might be too old to get the type of toughness Charles Barkley had.    But if you want to be the best forward you can be in basketball you just have to go down your checklist and KEEP IT SIMPLE:  Get bigger and stronger in the weight room, practice, practice, practice to get better and better at the game, AND TRY HARDER, imagine something that makes you mad, go to a crazy place, whatever works for you, but play and practice inspired and it will fall into place.  You are doing great and doing all you can do... Don't derail yourself.

entropy

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chasing athleticism -- W1D3
« Reply #1247 on: October 04, 2013, 09:02:48 am »
0
Training
FS 3x90, 2x110, 1x120, 1x130, 0Fx136
BS 3x120, 3x126, 1x130, 1x135
FS 3x115, 3x108
BS 6x110

BP 4x90 (PR), 8x70 (paused, PR)
WCU 2x92, 7x90, 5x94, 5x92, 4x90
HKR 2x15x90 (PR)

FS notes:
This is the warmup sequence i'd like to have, the only time i have to take plates off is going from 90kg to 110kg, i have to swap out the 15s for 20s. Maybe i could work up to 3x100kg so I don't have to take plates off for 90kg and can just add 10kg up to 130kg from 60kg onwards.

BS notes:
Kinda thought to work up to a heavy single because I wasn't really able to do reps. I got 135kg, which isn't great considering I doubled 140kg a few weeks ago not to mention 6x128 should convert to closer to 150kg than 140 but the lesson I learnt from that is higher reps are ok for pushing up strength but 1rm calculations are not very useful to me as I need to be able to actually lift a heavy max for athleticm's sake, not just compute one on paper.

FS2 notes:
Pretty disappointing attempts at 5 and 6 respectively. 5x115 i kinda dissuaded myself out of a PR because for some reason I was thinking 6 reps and there was no way i could do another 3 but in fact I only had another 2 reps to do for 5. Either way, it was going to be a difficult grind and I was in no mood for that shit today.

BS2 notes:
I wasn't game to do more sets just doesn't seem worthwhile to work hard while using light weights, i'm not motivated by that shit.

Core and misc notes:
Hanging knee raises seem like a good core exercise, especially while i'm overweight.


« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 12:19:46 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1248 on: October 04, 2013, 09:33:26 am »
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Next week i'd like to achieve a 140kg front squat and get my backsquat to 2x6x130kg, my plan is to do 3x6x126kg on monday, then 128kg on wednesday and on friday 2x6x130kg, maybe the 3rd set of 6 but with a belt, dunno.

To improve my chances of achieving the BS goals, i'm goign to do some core assistance work tonight, i have 2 days to recover so it should be good.

The squat mornings I did earlier this week have def made my back a lot stronger so i'm feeling good about kicking ass next week since I didn't over do it today and should have a fresh CNS and stronger lower back ready fo duty.

More than my FS i feel as though my BS /heavy/ for REPS is the best tool I have for improving my organism strength as Raptor described. FS exhibits it but it's the BS which builds it. And I have unfinished business left with the backsquat. When I can rep 140kg for 6 reps with good bar speed and nice form then i'll be stronger, until then i've just been fucking around.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 12:20:30 pm by entropy »
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entropy

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Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1250 on: October 07, 2013, 04:38:20 am »
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Lots of good replies above, sorry I haven't got around to acknowledging them yet.

LBBS, what you say about being 'strength' to hold the ball without being stripped is a skill is true, just not what we're talking about. Actually ChrisM came closer when he spoke about playing thru contact. That is an example of (physical) strength which is what i'm particularly interested!

Mutumbo000 got what I was getting at with having a strong physical game. He gives the insight that Rugby players who are fearless have been doing it all their life and do not shy away from contact. Todday gave more detail on this mindset and how it begins from an early age. I can relate to Mutombo about avoiding contact because i'm not build to hit ppl. T0dday might be, being a big burly stocky guy compared to someone like me.

I dont particularly want to play grindy and physical either, it's not attractive to me, actually that's a dirty aspect of the australian game, it's too physical and not enough finesse and skill which seems vulgar. In fact to me, an athletic, finesse game is ideal, and that's what drives me to work hard on increasing my athleticism because i'd like to out-move, out-jump, out-strength out-think my opponents. I'd like to dance around them (with my superior trained athleticism) AND in anticipation to what LBSS might say (it's a skill not athleticm) i'm sure it's related to physical /strength/power/reactive ability/etc which isn't a skill. I can work on my skills, should work on it  will work on my skills, that's going to happen regardless.

But coming back to strength, real physical strength on the court or the field. When you make contact with a strong player you feel the impact and power that the athlete is generating. Even if they weigh only 165, they hit hard. When you're guarding them as they drive, they're generating surprising amounts of momentum and you can feel it if you make contact, it's irresistible.  I'm intested in both facets of this, both being able to generate that kind of power, and also in being able to resist it (being immovable).

Quote from: ChrisM
Raptor says its "system strength" or that he just has no weak areas. That's true WHEN HES ON THE COURT. He HAS to be, he's been doing those same movements all his life. Put him on a football field or hockey rink and you'd expose all sorts of functional strength deficits! Take a farmer that tosses hay bales all day every day...look at him in his element and yes, hes "strong", take him away from that element and what happens though? You'll find weakness. (This is why SST is SO important as well!)

And Mutumbo go to probably the heart of it.... He's NOT a pussy. (can't think of any better way to put it actually). He knows he's going to get it, all the small guys do, we still go in there and bang because we don't give a fuck, we just want to win and thats the bottom line.

It's a mindset. A mental toughness polished through years of competitive play and the nature of a true competitor. You can't get that in the weight room, you can't get hit during drills or shooting sessions or even the most intense practice. It's forged on the field of play. Period.

^this sums it up

Quote from: Coges
- Use your hips/bum- these guys that seem immovable have great hip strength and have learned to use their hips/bum to either block out or move their opponent to their advantage. If you've ever watched AFL think Chris Judd. Not the biggest guy out there but has great hip/core strength to be able to stand up in tackles and not get moved/shoved off the ball. As a big guy on the basketball court this skill is essential. 

Thanks, that's what I need in the post, which is an area i'm not confortable in, and quite frankly, I don't know if I need to be, being 6'3" and weighing 75-80kg lol. I mean I would like to be able to defend well but as far as posting up on someone who outweighs me by 20-40kg yea that's not going to happen.


2) As Mutumbo said.... There is just no replacement for toughness.   Unfortunately, this might be a bit harder for someone to acquire because you can practice all you want but you might not have toughness.  Toughness is really acquired pretty young; you can pretty much tell from an early age which kids have it and which kids don't.  Basically the kid with all the broken bones who doesn't seem to fear much socially or physically and is a bit crazy...   Usually only children/first children have less toughness and young girls are more cautious.  Exceptions to every rule.   One way to be tough is to just naturally not give a fuck or have a bunch of older brothers that beat the hell out of you all the time...  The thing about being fearless is it's a bit maladaptive...   I think the only way to really acquire toughness is to play a collision sport where you realize that you just have to let go and go absolutely crazy.  I didn't start playing football until high-school and I was pretty afraid to hit during drills because they coach was forced to make us watch tons of videos about spearing and paralysis so I tackled high with my head to the sky and and always received blows when tackling.   One day I was already moving full speed and somebody came out of no-where and I had little choice but to dip a shoulder and I was able to pancake the guy and continue running over him.  After that I realized the benefit of delivering the blow rather than receiving it and became somewhat addicted to tackling and started playing like the strongest guy on the field....

The confound here is described in point #2.   To some extent you can figure out "toughness/physicality".... but it's easier to figure it out if you are also bigger and stronger to begin with.  Throwing your body into the other player will almost always yield a better result than flinching and cowering... but if your really weak your gonna get wrecked and your glasses broken either way.... so you won't get as much positive feedback to inspire your toughness.  Perhaps your teammate complain that your soft.... But since you are tall and useful to the team they don't complain very loudly. 

The bottom line for you is to not go down any further the path which you have started.  No offense but I call this the typical "nerd" approach to sports.  They find that they have some disadvantage (example: "you get the ball stripped the other guy doesn't") and then they take an approach where they essentially say "Ok back to the lab to figure out how to model the problem and ameliorate this deficit"....   Then the waste a bunch of time doing shit like band bicep curls with my hands clasped to increase strength for ripping the ball through the lane...  This is the kind of idiocy that spawns things like bosu ball squats....

Don't waste your time... Yes, you might be too old to get the type of toughness Charles Barkley had.    But if you want to be the best forward you can be in basketball you just have to go down your checklist and KEEP IT SIMPLE:  Get bigger and stronger in the weight room, practice, practice, practice to get better and better at the game, AND TRY HARDER, imagine something that makes you mad, go to a crazy place, whatever works for you, but play and practice inspired and it will fall into place.  You are doing great and doing all you can do... Don't derail yourself.

This is great advice.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 04:40:16 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1251 on: October 07, 2013, 04:46:07 am »
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I'm getting this 'strength is a skill' vibe from posters above. I can buy that, to a certain extent anyway, if you practice movement in a fluid powerful manner then you're actually quite /strong/ when performing those movements if you happen to make contact. Or if you defending someone who moves like that, being able to react correctly must also be skill. One important thing i've picked up from posts above is that toughness is a mindset thing, and if you're passive then you'll be weak, if you are deliberate and play without fear you're strong. That might help me a lot actually, i just never consciously thought of it that way.
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vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1252 on: October 07, 2013, 06:22:57 am »
+1
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

entropy

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chasing athleticism -- W1D1
« Reply #1253 on: October 07, 2013, 08:27:32 am »
0
Training
FS 1x136 (PR)
BS 4Fx126, 4x125, 3x120, 5x117.5, 5x115
BP 8x84 (PR)
ABZ 3x8xrollout

FS notes:
Not bad but I can do a lot better. FS 1x140 by friday is probably too ambitious though but I will still give it a honest shot, if i sleep and rest properly and feel strong and fresh on friday, it's doable, otoh, with my backsquat doing so poorly perhaps I should compromise some.

BS notes:
Form clicked, I made it a very knee dominant movement ,i dont know how or why, but it was cool. I still can't rep out my sets though which sucks but i only have myself to blame for poor leadup. I might try 3x6x127.5 on wednesday all the same. Oh btw it's due to a lack of leg strength endurance that I cant do more reps, otherwise my core held up ok. I am really disappointed with my backsquat numbers right now :(

summarising -- 2x6x127.5 on wednesday will make me extremely happy..

My PR for 6 reps on backsquat is 128. If i'm failing to get 126 or 125 and 120 not to mention 117.5 and 115 then it goes to show even on such a weak day i can still get a front squat PR. This tells me i have a lot left in the tank, maybe 140kg on friday isn't so crazy. Conversely if i'm doing poorly on my backsquat on a weak day, what's my potential on the backsquat on a strong day? I dunno, i wish it were 135kg plus for 5-6 reps but that's interpolating far too much. At some point i'll just accept the fact that i'm not able to rep over 130kg for whatever reason, and just chase a different goal (150-150kg max) instead.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 11:16:29 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1255 on: October 07, 2013, 09:56:41 am »
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ChrisM and raptor had an interesting discussion on maintaining a flat upright back on a double leg vertical jump (see the my bboy stance thread). ChrisM said it's to do with a lack of core strength. This ties in with something Joe suggested about my freaky 160lb athlete who is much stronger than life would suggest. I've put 2 and 2 together and started working on my core strength because I have a horrible unathletic rounded back stance while playing ball, whether on defense or a ME SVJ attempt. So on friday I did more core work. Today I reaped the benefits, even though my legs were too weak to get a backsquat PR, I noticed I could hold my position at the bottom of a backsquat much better. It felt stronger. I would put that down to teh extra core work i put in friday. I'd like to continue this tack over the next few weeks, doing core work regularly and seeing how it benefits me both in the gym and on the court.
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entropy

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chasing athleticism -- W1D1 (continued)
« Reply #1256 on: October 07, 2013, 10:37:55 am »
+3
Jumping
5xSVJ dunks
5xRVJ dunks (off 2-3 steps)
5xME RVJ jumps

Interesting that tonight I jumped as high as I can remember on this court, albeit weighing a portly 198.5lb (90kg) in clothes and socks-only before leaving home. So i'd say w/ basketball shoes take me over 90, maybe 199.5 or so (dunno what they weigh). Anyway I tried out the new thing of keeping a conscious flat back on the jump, suddenly I could land those SVJ dunks convincingly. That was interesting. It's not so clear how to employ the same technique on RVJ but i'll figure it out.

Then I took off my big oversize, heavy cumbersome bball shoes and put on my lightweight running shoes which I use for the occasional, bi-annual jumping session. I wanted to touch the top of the backboard square, that remains my training goal, and at 90kg bw, it wasn't really in the realm of possibility. So imagine my surprise when a lot closer than I ever have before?!! This is on a weak day, when i'm fatigued from squatting, with very little jumping practice in me. So wtf is going on, i dunno but it's interesting that being 10-15kg overweight i just jumped as good if not better than I ever have on a vertical touch test. I really wish I had some sort of coloured powder or something so I could leave a mark on the backboard to measure against but i didn't have any handy.

So this gives me a lot of motivation going forward. If i am a mere 3-4" away from my prized holy grail of touching the top of the backboard square, perhaps i'm not doing too badly in chasing athleticism. I mean right now my relative strength sucks (barely over 1.5xbw FS). So when I add the next 14kg to the bar and take off 15kg off my belly, perhaps just maybe, this slow, unathletic whale will soar above 36" and beyond. Thank you and good night.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

ChrisM

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1257 on: October 07, 2013, 11:06:45 am »
+1
;D


Keep going man!! I train some part of my core every session. Its helped with lifts AND jumping.
Insert motivational quote here...

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1258 on: October 07, 2013, 11:15:20 am »
+1
;D


Keep going man!! I train some part of my core every session. Its helped with lifts AND jumping.

Because of your post I went back and did ab wheel. Thanks!  :highfive:
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entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1259 on: October 08, 2013, 05:13:40 am »
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Ow lord my abs are sore today. Hope i'm good to squat tmr. I have to make the most of being heavy right now and do a lot of bodyweight exercises while they're hard. Doing ab wheel rollouts when i'm a lightweight is fucking pointless but right now they're not too bad, hitting the spot pretttttty good. maybe i should get a weighted vest and maintain my bodyweight for certain exercises..

bodyweight update: 194.8 (!), is that the first time i'm under 195 in the last few weeks? I haven't really been weighing myself regularly when I lost my pc, i lost access to my custom software i made to keep a track of my training and bodycomp. i'm back on my system so i'll start tracking everything regularly again. Saying that, also waist was 36.5" today, so i'm still fat but it's ok, once squat goals are achieved i'll fix that.

also, calves are sore today for the first time in ages. jumping i did last night, cool. I guess this is telling me i should keep regular jumps in my training, at least once a week from here on. calve raises might be useful too.. maybe i have really weak calves...? worth experimenting with by adding in some weight training for them.

One thing I can't wait for is to finish my squatting block and begin sprinting. I feel as though as training at my current bodyweight to run quickly will do wonders for my athleticism, maybe indirectly thru increasing leg stiffness? i dont do any running right now cause they'll make my legs too sore to squat :( but .. ive heard hill sprints avoid that, not that i know of any places to dhills around here, will try to ask around if there are any. well i have hills around home but they're concrete not grass.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 05:31:39 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat