Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 1463166 times)

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AlexV

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1005 on: July 19, 2013, 01:22:44 am »
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Brace.  Cant squat real heavy without a solid bracing.  Plus research sows it is safer.  Oh and the TVA from the hollowing ( the main argument for it) actually TVA and proper core activation comes from diaphragmic breathing...  so belly breathe and brace and core function will take care of itself.
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entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1006 on: July 19, 2013, 09:31:59 am »
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Can you define what you mean brace, Alex? As in walk me thru your defn. Actually if you could walk me thru your process starting from approaching the bar all the way to when you rack it when the set is over i'd very grateful.
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Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1007 on: July 19, 2013, 09:39:53 am »
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Brace? If you were to get punched in the stomach you wouldn't brace?
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1008 on: July 19, 2013, 09:48:38 am »
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THE THING IS THOUGH BRO, YOU CAN BRACE INWARD AND YOU CAN BRACE OUTWARD. WTF DOES BRACE MEAN?
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entropy

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chasing athleticism -- W3D3
« Reply #1009 on: July 19, 2013, 09:49:04 am »
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Training
FS 1x110, 1x115, 3Fx120, 2Fx125B, 3x112, 4Fx108.5
HBBS 2x6x110, 10x100 (PR)
BP 6Fx85.5, 8Fx80
X-Band Walk(orange) - 2x15m
Glute Band Bridge (orange) 3x15

FS notes:
Still paying for those careless chinups from monday. I have to believe if my upper body (back mainly) were less fatigued I would have a shiny new 3RM PR to show for it. Next monday it is. I came quite close to locking out that 3rd rep on the 120kg set as I can remember. But my elbows dropped and I couldnt leg drive up from that point so I put it down. Thought to see what a belt would do, i put on another 5kg aiming to double 125kg but once again my rack let me down and I had to bail on the set. It seems to me my FS right now is limited by the upper back. Not even the so called 'core' because a belt doesn't help me much if at all which suggests it's either legs or upper body.

So monday, i'll repeat 120x3. The fucker is a LOT heavier than what should be a 1/2kg PR. Frustrating!

BS notes:
This lift was much better this workout. The rehab work is already showing form improvement, so much so the weights felt light and though the sets themselves were nevertheless hard, I have to think i'm now on the right track. The high bar acksquat for what it is worth, is already adding slabs of meat to my thighs, there is no denying it. It's the lift which gives me a noticeable quad burn during and after the set, not the FS. I think it will drive my FS up 1:1 just because it's such a leg dominant lift. That's supposing of course that my upper back keeps pace with my leg development, which I will have to ensure by training the upper back directly.

My form felt very strong. I'm taking a narrow stance and my toes are turned out only slightly now (thanks Kelly crossfit guy). I just think i'm awfully close to getting my BS just right.

BP notes:
My (new) spotter kinda ruined my PR attempt. She miscounted the reps, and went for the bar after i finished the 5th rep, so i stopped her and said i have one more, which took away my focus. And then on the 6th rep, i hit my sticking point but she had already moved to grab the bar before I could bear with my full force on locking it out, i gave up because I wasn't going to count the rep even if I got it since she was touching the bar. I miss self spotting myself. Sigh. It's okay, next time i'll for 6x86kg and I'll get it too because I felt very strong today bench wise.

Mobility notes:
Forget the band glute bridge. That's an okay exercise, dont get me wrong. But i've found an ever better one now. It's called the X band walk. It really shows up my weakness and I am confident that by getting good at the exercise I'll have much better backsquat form when all is said and done. Very optimstic about my backsquat right now. Things are going very well.

After doing the mobility work I felt sick. They are hard work. Good..

« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:21:52 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1010 on: July 19, 2013, 10:26:04 am »
+1
you can't brace inward, unless the word "brace" has a different meaning in upside-down land. there's no pulling in or pushing out, you just get your spine and hips lined up right and squeeze your abs. they do tend to go out just a bit because you're flexing them, but that's the same as if you bent your hand to touch your shoulder and then flexed. you're already in position with your hand on your shoulder, the flexing just stabilizes you in that position.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1011 on: July 19, 2013, 10:32:17 am »
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lolzy pop,  Don't shoot the messenger. it's not me man, i dont have a horse in this race. The meaning of 'brace' depends who you ask. The word brace means the same as 'good', everyone thinks it's what they prefer. Ownership of the word etc. The guys pulling their belly button inside think they are bracing. And the guys who are pushing their diaphragm out while squeezing their abs out think they are bracing too. I wish I could quote Everett's book right now because he has an interesting take of this subject as well.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:33:58 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1012 on: July 19, 2013, 11:21:35 am »
+1
the people with the horse in the race named "sucking your belly button toward your spine" are betting on a three-legged nag. that's literally the dumbest thing i've heard so far today. you say you don't have a horse in the race, but you continue to acknowledge that "bracing inward" is a possibility, which it manifestly is not. bracing is neither inward nor outward, it is just bracing! your abs and obliques and other core muscles stiffen to preserve the neutral position of your spine! that's it!

i'll post a picture later of what pushing your diaphragm down and your abs out really looks like. most people can't do it at all. it's one of my several useless talents.

kelly starrett is a mediocre writer, the shrink-wrapping metaphor is sort of okay but it falls apart when he adds the bit about sucking your belly button in. you're right that his description is confusing.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1013 on: July 19, 2013, 01:19:58 pm »
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Some of the weirdest discussions here... I would say more but... I'm being diplomatic...

I hear something opposite of the valsalva maneuver here. I personally never did valsalva. I just BRACED or flattened my abs.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1014 on: July 21, 2013, 03:15:54 am »
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Would you guys say it's impossible to actively push against a lifting belt? And is it impossible to do the opposite?

The interesting this about this week's training is I did very little FS volume (23 reps not including warmups) and a low amount of BS volume (56 reps) too. But yet my quads are sore. They never got sore like this when I did mainly a shitload of FS volume. I mean I used to do that many FS in just 1 workout. It gives support to my theory that my HBBS is way more quad dominant than my FS. I still find it confusing what this means for my musculature - how am I getting the FS up if not with my quads? Glutes? But my glutes are terrifically weak as shown by the glute activation exercises i've been doing lately. Real life mystery. For whatever it's worth though, my backsquat isn't even heavy right now, the weights i'm using are weights i can use for FS for the same reps. So I probably have a lot of potential left in me yet. By next week this time i'll only just have got near my PR weights on the HBBS. And from there I would like to add another 20kg to my HBBS.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 03:29:34 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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chasing athleticism -- W4D1
« Reply #1015 on: July 22, 2013, 07:30:57 am »
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Training
FS 3Fx120, 4x112.5, 3x110, 4x107.5, 3x105
BS 2x6x112, 10x102.5 (PR)
FS 5x100, 4x97.5
BP 7x80, 7x79.5, 7x75
CU 2,5,4,3,4 (banded)

FS notes:
Eventful session. I learnt a huge lesson about this lifting stuff. I had been reading all the information I could get my hands on lately in an attempt to really nail down my technique and become a good lifter. I read everetts's book and he went thru the usual reasons for using olympic lifting shoes. They provide a stable base of support, etc etc. All stuff that makes sense on paper. But in reality I had already discovered the OL shoe can be more of an impediment than a facilitator of good technique. How you ask? Because I had discovered from trial and error that by tightening the shoe up as recommended, and using the metatarsal strap to tightly embrace the foot is one of the touted benefits of the OL shoe actually prevents me from squatting properly, esp at the bottom position.It pulls me out of position, forcing my hips to stay behind and I don't get any bounce out of the hole. Instead I come out leaning fwd at a fault. So you read this stuff and say ok they must be right, i'll try it their way because they're experts. And then you have a string of bad workouts where form rather than being much better is demonstrably worse. PRs are not coming and you're wondering wtf is going on.

On my last set of front squats, I loosed the fuck out of my shoe. Took the bar out. And found my old nice groove on the FS. Form was suddenly and noticeably improved. Hips stayed under the bar.

Before & After bottom positions.

Now I have to question the wisdom of using WL shoes. What exactly are these things providing me? The hard to compress heel? Well I could get that from an inexpensive pair of leather dress shoes! They're just expensive ugly pieces of pointless gym equipment. If I were to do it again, i wouldn't bother with buying them at all. I mean if i'm going to wear them loose then the strap doesn't even need to be there. And all shoes have laces that can be kept loose, again, nothing to be gained.

I did have a curious thought. What if the WL shoe takes away mobility by hugging the foot tightly. But it gives back some mobility thru the heel? The net effect is you get the tightness without sacrificing mobility that would entail? Perhaps that's true. I can't test that hypothesis though cause mine have a small heel.

BS notes:
Wore shoes loose, see FS notes. I don't know whether this is good or bad. On one hand I need much less ankle mobility on HBBS cause they're not as deep. But I was getting more hip involvement with them loose, so perhaps I do get more out of the exercise with looser shoes. More carry over to FS perhaps.

Gorgeous form on that last set of PR HBBS. I'm approaching professional olympic lifter form on these :) Feels good man.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 05:25:44 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1016 on: July 22, 2013, 10:35:18 am »
+1

The interesting this about this week's training is I did very little FS volume (23 reps not including warmups) and a low amount of BS volume (56 reps) too. But yet my quads are sore. They never got sore like this when I did mainly a shitload of FS volume. I mean I used to do that many FS in just 1 workout. It gives support to my theory that my HBBS is way more quad dominant than my FS. I still find it confusing what this means for my musculature - how am I getting the FS up if not with my quads? Glutes? But my glutes are terrifically weak as shown by the glute activation exercises i've been doing lately. Real life mystery. For whatever it's worth though, my backsquat isn't even heavy right now, the weights i'm using are weights i can use for FS for the same reps. So I probably have a lot of potential left in me yet. By next week this time i'll only just have got near my PR weights on the HBBS. And from there I would like to add another 20kg to my HBBS.

Soreness shouldn't really be trusted as that good an indicator of muscle involvement.  Soreness can vary based on diet, lifestyle, stress, technique, eccentric speed, etc.  Additionally, if you stress the muscle belly near the insertion it's more likely to get sore; different firing patterns may make a muscle more or less sore but muscle activation doesn't always correlate.

For 99% of people the front squat involves more quad activation than the backsquat.  Despite this an old coach used to say if you can't front squat you have week hamstrings/glutes.   The reason being the largest difference with front and back squat is that the front squat takes your back almost completely out of the lift.  The second largest difference is your front squat requires more quad activation than backsquat.   However, if you have weak hamstrings/glutes you can still get a backsquat up thanks to your back; not so for frontsquat.   When you front squat you probably have a different firing pattern from glutes/ham coming out of the whole to quads; on your backsquat your glutes/ham or more active later in the lift but your back can contribute more as well; this different firing pattern probably causes you to be sore because you are NOT USED TO IT.  You have front squatted awhile and you did it in the absence of back squat.  Don't forget that.  People are always amazed at the muscle activation of a new exercise.  Had you back squatted exclusively for a year and then started front squatting you would be posting "OMG front squats make my quads sooooo sore, they must be much more quad dominant".   After about 3 years of training you won't hardly get sore at all except for strange dull tendon feelings; then you will be able to better judge.

AlexV

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1017 on: July 23, 2013, 08:43:18 pm »
+3
bracing is simply what Raptor said.  Tense your entire abdominal girdle like you are going to take a punch.  We can talk more complex about this but this is essentially what it is.  to regulate stiffness you brace the wall and do the valsalva maneuver pushing the diaphragm down and into the brace.  This is what you would do if you are attempting a big pull or squat.  So the valsalva is not always part of it but it is definitely a component of a good brace. 

When you valsalva into the brace you will see the abs push outward a bit.

So it is NOT drawing in, it is not pushing your belly out like buddah (i think tat came from louie simmons and his use of the weight belt),  it is just tighten your gut like your friend is trying to knock the wind out of you.  Then valsalva into the brace to create as much stiffness as the job requires.  Picking up a 45lb plate?  may not need more than a little tightness.  Squatting 315? Brace and valsalva into it to create as much stiffness as you need.  Squatting 600?  brace and valsalva maximally into it.

Wanna get better at bracing.

lie down
keeping 1 leg straight on the ground bend the other knee to 90 and keep the foot resting on the ground
brace
Valsalva into the brace
perform small crunch into the brace not letting the valsalva or brace go (just get your shoulderblades off the ground)
this is my understanding of a mcgill crunch

as your brace and valsalva get stronger they will resist the crunch more and make it more and more difficult

Use as much or as little as you need to get the job done.  If my nephew is punching my gut it is a little brace.  If it one of my MMA fighters it is much more and will include valsalva.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 08:45:13 pm by AlexV »
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Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1018 on: July 24, 2013, 01:47:36 am »
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THE THING IS THOUGH BRO, YOU CAN BRACE INWARD AND YOU CAN BRACE OUTWARD. WTF DOES BRACE MEAN?

Something you most certainly wouldn't think about before getting punched in the stomach.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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chasing athleticism -- W4D2
« Reply #1019 on: July 24, 2013, 09:27:41 am »
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Training
FS 1x110, 1x115, 4x112, 5Fx110,
BS 2x6x114

FS notes:
I took out the bar to attempt 3x120kg PR but my chest was crying at the rack and just wasn't having it. It's a clear sign I can't try to force a 3RM FS PR every workout of the week anymore, especially if on wednesdays my upper back, lats and and front are going to be fried from monday's chinups and bench and of course front squatting.  Racked it without attempting any reps because there was no chance I could get a PR. Thought to go for 5x112 but the 4th rep felt like a RM. I've forgot how to front squat or something, my form is terrible right now. Thinking I might reduce FS frequency from 3x to maybe 1x or 2x while focusing on BS but attempt a new FS 3RM weekly.

BS notes:
Tightened up shoes for BS. Thought this would limit ROM and depth and take stress of my hips because i'm paranoid of reinjury. I thought my form was terrible. Just cant seem to keep my knees apart in tension, I have to allow them come in before driving the bar up. Is it an anthropometry thing? Maybe i'm just never gonna be able to fix that problem. But that's just what's visible on video. The problem that's really working me with my BS is I don't think my core (especially at the back) is tight during these reps. It almost feels impossible to tighten up when I take the bar out on my back. My back muscles are probably loose or inert thru the whole set. On the last 2 or 3 reps I get this lightening bolt sensation up my arm from my back, probably as a consequence of my back looseness.


The working training plan and philosophy  is to push my BS to 6x140kg from todays 6x114kg in the next 4 weeks and build some general mass and BS strength as a consequence. Then later i'll convert that general muscle and strength into useful athletic strength by refocusing on the FS (and perhaps some other pussy gymnastics shit with a barbell). The impediment as always is my shitty form which will be the #1 problem in achieving my goal.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 07:41:26 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat