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How is the sprinting coming?  How have your times coincided with your diet? 

I'll find out for you this friday, I haven't tested since I weighed mid 180s. Should be interesting to see how it goes!

While at first glance it seems you should stop trying to lose weight.... It seems you have gained strength despite getting really small.  This certainly isn't in-line with extreme weight loss.

I have to agree with this. If I was as lean as it would seem for my height and weight, then I would be struggling bigtime with trying to progress my squat. But actually I am progressing even though it's very slow, my lifts aren't plummeting by any means, if anything im consistently adding weight to the bar (albeit over a timescale of several weeks and months). The fact that I originally thought I was 20% doesn't mean i'm 5% now, it just means I was a initially lot higher than 20% - prob high 20s? It's most likely that i simply underestimated my initial bodyfat which a lot of people do when they're fat.

Either:

1) you have hollow bones (pretty awesome, like a bird)
2) Your scale/ruler is broken
3) You think you look fat but suffer from body dysmorphia (you should post a picture for the sane members of the forum to evalute)
4) You were extremely inactive/fat for a lot of your life, have a small frame, and have added decent squat strength despite an overall lack of musculature and some stubborn fat deposits/extra skin which keeps you from looking lean with your shirt off despite the fact that you actually have a low overall percentage of bf.  You store almost no fat on your legs, glutes, back, but have a bit of adipose on your love handles/chest where a few pounds can keep you from looking lean...

Straight away we can rule out 2 because I've checked my bodyweight against the scales at the gym and it matches close to the pair I have in the bathroom. I dont think I have body dysmorphia, I don't think i'm someone anorexic thinking he's fatter than he is. I don't want to be super skinny in the first place! It's something i'm having to do so that I can gain mass optimally later on.

This is taken 2nd of Jan this year. I'm leaner now though but not significantly. Weighed around ~168.

So that leaves hollow bones.. and small frame and inactive during the ages 18-21 and then 22-27. I was very active as a teen but my diet was terrible and I was almost anoexic thru puberty (how I wish I could go back in time and change that!). I think this is probably it. For someone who weighs 165 at 6'3" I don't look small at all, I look pretty big. I think that's an illusion due to my small frame. I'm tall yes but I don't think i'm that wide? So the 165 is distributed in a way which makes it seem plentiful and as a result I look a lot heavier than I weigh (in my admittedly biased opinion). But then again I don't have tiny wrists or ankles, mine are 6.5" and 8.5" respectively, which I think is average or above average? I honestly can't explain it.  Your guess as good as mine.

For what it's worth, I woke up today looking and feeling (=pinch test) a lot leaner than I did the day before. So it's like i've had an overnight transformation. It gives me confidence that i'm on the right track. Steadily with time, the pinches are getting smaller, and there is less jiggling in the mirror when I jump about. I dont think i'm in danger of getting into single digits of bodyfat .. yet. Yes, that goes completely against intuition, I don't expect you to believe that someone with my height and weight is still this fat.. but it is what it is.. i'm not sure what I can do about it short of staying the course.

Let me put it this way. The fat around my waist and chest wont disappear if I suddenly gain 9lb of muscle. It will still be there. I'll still LOOK fat even if my objective bodyfat % has gone down from adding more muscle. And that what really matters to me. I guess at some point I decided I didn't care about what a DEXA would say about my bodyfat % (whether it's 7% or 17% means nothing to me), nor skinfold calipers and what have you. The only test that matters to me is looking in a mirror and seeing someone lean and athletic - or not - and since i'm not - i'd like to keep dropping bodyfat until I get there. I dont expect I have very long to go now. I'd say about 1lb of fat in my upper body, 1.5lb around my lower back. 1.5 around my gut. Maybe another 2lb around my body in general. A total of 6lb. At 159 I think i'll definitely be done. I'm around ~165 now. So it's not a long way away. We've all seen the video below or some model of bodyfat before, that's what i'm using for my rough estimate.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V52At_gnZKM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V52At_gnZKM</a>

Just my two cents, but you are at a good point and here is what I would do if I were you.   Stop cutting.  But DO NOT BULK.  At least not the bulk that 95% of people do to gain strength.  You are spot on when you say you fear spinning your wheels by making your progress and then fattening up and adding some strength but losing or maintaining relative strength.   You have built up a lot of discipline from dieting.  You can summon on that discipline to maximize your potential.  Keep the training up.  Add some carbs post-workout [~50g] and one other time per day (preferably morning unless you train really early) get a minimum of 100 grams of protein and some oils in your diet and when you are hungry try to reaching for primarily good protein sources and eat until your almost full.  You still shouldn't eat that "hot chip" and probably never should.  Stay away from alcohol and keep the training intense try and the volume decent.  Consider adding other compound movements like standing barbell presses, oly lifts, and deadlifts to your training.  You could even bench press.   Get on the track all the time.  Do speed work but don't neglect speed endurance workouts.  They will hurt but they will get you to win races and they will get you lean and they will get you to recomp.   I have yet to see a guy who doesn't neglect his weight training and runs himself into basic track shape (example:  3 400m's in sub 60 w/3 minutes rest or 10 200's under 30 with 1 min rest) who looks "fat".  This holds even for idiot college athletes who subsist on orange soda and dorm food.   These guys look remarkably leaner after a couple weeks of two-a-days despite binging on pizza each night.   You get sufficient protein and don't binge eat and you tilt the equation even more in your favor.  Take a picture now and take a picture after... My bet is you might be a few pounds heavier... But who cares.  You will be a hell of a better athlete... and that is what you are chasing...

I pretty much agree with everything you've written here starting with being patient with gains and not trying to gain too much weight all at once. That's definitely how i'll be doing it. My diet has been dialled in for a long time now, I get around 160g of protein a day, and keep fat intake low but I do eat healthy fats like egg yolk and fish oil and use minimal olive oil in cooking.  Will def keep that up long after I stop cutting but i'll increase the amount. Carbs i dont mess around with, if i eat too little my mood plummets and my physical performance goes along with it. So I keep carb intake around 100-150g a day. As I get leaner I might have to manipulate carbs though - but so far I haven't needed to. I already use heavy compound movements like bench and overhead press and will keep that up as well. I do need to add heavy deadlifts though but i've had problems with form which scare me off. But yes i'll def try the 2-a-days and heavy track work. That sounds like a great change of pace. And to make it worthwhile i'll put myself down to enter a meet this year too to motivate myself.

I have to agree with this. If I was as lean as it would seem for my height and weight, then I would be struggling bigtime with trying to progress my squat. But actually I am progressing even though it's very slow, my lifts aren't plummeting by any means, if anything im consistently adding weight to the bar (albeit over a timescale of several weeks and months). The fact that I originally thought I was 20% doesn't mean i'm 5% now, it just means I was a initially lot higher than 20% - prob high 20s? It's most likely that i simply underestimated my initial bodyfat which a lot of people do when they're fat.

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I don't know what you looked like but I really doubt you were in the high 20%.  High 20% male is REALLY fat.  Like someone who walks into the room and everyone knows it's the fat guy.  Since you are dieting right now you are probably holding a bit of water.   I went from 210 to 190 once and my bodyfat (hydrostatic measurement) went from 9% to 5%.  This only accounts for about half the weight, but this is typical.  About half the weight you lose on a cut if bodyfat, a tiny amount (if you do it right) will be lean tissue, and almost half should be water from lack of glycogen.  Remember hydrophilic  glycogen isn't very efficient, about 4 grams of water are in complex with each gram (this is why the body stores fat), so we lose a lot of weight when you cut it.  This weight loss comes off quick and comes back quick, it's why people think they are yoyoing and gaining/losing fat (for the most part they are not).  I can gain 10-15lbs in one day from an extreme glycogen reload... I have a decent amount of muscle so this might be a bit more than some but most of us will be able to gain/loss a lot this way.  If you were 195 and now your 165 I would estimate you were went from 18-20% bf to about 10-12% bf.   Your bodyfat loss probably accounts for 15-20 lbs which is AWESOME.

This is taken 2nd of Jan this year. I'm leaner now though but not significantly. Weighed around ~168.

Let me put it this way. The fat around my waist and chest wont disappear if I suddenly gain 9lb of muscle. It will still be there. I'll still LOOK fat even if my objective bodyfat % has gone down from adding more muscle. And that what really matters to me. I guess at some point I decided I didn't care about what a DEXA would say about my bodyfat % (whether it's 7% or 17% means nothing to me), nor skinfold calipers and what have you. The only test that matters to me is looking in a mirror and seeing someone lean and athletic - or not - and since i'm not - i'd like to keep dropping bodyfat until I get there. I dont expect I have very long to go now. I'd say about 1lb of fat in my upper body, 1.5lb around my lower back. 1.5 around my gut. Maybe another 2lb around my body in general. A total of 6lb. At 159 I think i'll definitely be done. I'm around ~165 now. So it's not a long way away. We've all seen the video below or some model of bodyfat before, that's what i'm using for my rough estimate.

No offense, but maybe a bit of dysmorphia.  If you are leaner than the guy in the picture... You have done pretty well for yourself.  The first thing I notice about the guy in the shoulder is undeveloped delts, not excess fat! 

I DO understand that you think (and probably do to an extent) have extra unsightly fat around your chest or waist.  Some of it excess skin which will tighten over time and some of it additional adipose tissue.  But what I am saying is that while it's DISAPPEAR if you suddenly gain 9lb of muscle... It's not necessarily going to go away either when you get to 159 or 155 or 149... but all those numbers might cause your strength gains to slow or reverse and that's certainly a bad thing.  Like you said all that fat that you want to get rid of probably weighs about 2-3 lbs.  While it's unsightly, it's the minority of of the fat on your body.   If you get to 159 it's likely you might finally lose a bit of muscle, lose a few lbs of fats from your legs where you can't really see it lose some water. 

Fact is you need to accept that you are getting so lean that it's going to be hard to cut further fat without losses in LBM with restrictive dieting alone.  Love handle fat is largely hormonal and probably will be some of the last fat to come off your body. 

I didn't mean to throw LBSS under the bus with his advice to cut... I'm sure he knows what a sound approach is to nutrition but unfortunately the phrase "go on a bulk" has just a negative connotation thanks to the legion of rippetoe followers who totally bastardize the idea of gaining a bit of weight to get strength up....    I wrote some advice about bulking to dreyth that you might want to check out.  I think it's fitting for you as well.   In the long run if you set out the goal to touch 159... go for it.  It probably won't kill you and their is some psychological value to achieving goals which I will admit.   However, it sounds like your goal was 165 and you amended it because you still have some unsightly fat... Please don't amend it again if you still have it at 159 (you probably will).    Instead you should focus on controlling your nutrition (read the dreyth post) and adding tempo work to your fitness (or you can swim or whatever, I only favor tempo from track).     I had the pleasure to speak with Charlie Francis about the value of tempo/system work and what he had discovered from years of training athletes was that tempo was absolutely necessary for female sprinters (who are hormonally a lot worse off than you)  because when they just did speed work and weight training they held too much fat, but when they dieted down to hit weight to cut bf they lost too much strength/muscle  (where you are at)  but with tempo work they could maintain low-bodyfat without sacrificing calories and in turn losing muscle/strength.   It sounds strange but I always recommend amateur male athletes take serious they training/diet that works for elite women, because elite men have genetic/drug advantages which might make their gains inapplicable.

Think about it like this.  You just lost 30lbs and 20lbs of fat.  Now time to get some muscle.  Get the tempo work in and you won't gain much fat along your next phase.  I know you want to lose an extra lb of love handle but at some point you gotta say I just lost 20lbs... Maybe that love handle is for round 2.

yeah for the record i did not mean GOMAD BRO!!!!!!!!!!

not sure what t0ddddddday means by my "advice to cut" -- maybe just mistyped. my advice was to stop cutting and to begin thinking about adding muscle. that can obviously be done the rippetoe way, but the rippetoe way is sub-optimal in this context as we have all discussed. for what it's worth i agree completely with t0ddday and i think we were saying the same thing. he just did so in greater depth and fewer references to jesus.

yeah for the record i did not mean GOMAD BRO!!!!!!!!!!

not sure what t0ddddddday means by my "advice to cut" -- maybe just mistyped. my advice was to stop cutting and to begin thinking about adding muscle. that can obviously be done the rippetoe way, but the rippetoe way is sub-optimal in this context as we have all discussed. for what it's worth i agree completely with t0ddday and i think we were saying the same thing. he just did so in greater depth and fewer references to jesus.

^ yeah sorry, mean your advice about bulking.  Agreed.

Quote from: entropy on February 05, 2013, 01:32:10 am

Re lower back strength, you guys have convinced me. Im going to push my lower back strength up like crazy. My legs are weak but my back is even weaker. Squatting makes my legs a bit stronger sure. But nothing is making my back stronger which is a problem. If I want to be a good sprinter i'll def have to prioritise my lower back.

 Making your legs stronger will help your sprinting and athleticism around 200355459084458000.7 times more than worrying about your lower back.  Youve made great gains in athleticism so far doing what youve been doing, why start spinning your wheels now?

hey everyone, lance is still alive!

True Lance. I'll keep dancing with the girl who brought me to the ball. Thanks for reminding me. Btw do you think it's ok to keep cutting to 159? Or do you think I should stop now? I don't want to give up when i've come so close. I don't think I have long to go now.

edit. Thinking about it, there are only 3 weeks left in Feb. I can't lose much weight now anyway and 159 is out of the picture from around 165. At best I'll be in the low 160s at the end of Feb. So how about a compromise. I'll cut to say 163-162. And stop cutting there. But since I'm unhappy with my body composition, i'll believe T0dday that thru training I can continue to improve my body composition, or specifically that doing tempo work will improve body comp, I can continue to improve bodycomp even once i've stopped cutting come march. This way I'll be able to train better by getting off the caloric deficit and my body comp will improve thru training. Sort of a best of both worlds.

Yea, I agree with what hes saying, eat enough to get stronger, while staying athletic/fairly lean.   dont " bulk".  Good luck man keep killing it.

Training (Lower)
FS 2x90, 1x100, 3x104.5, 3Fx105.5
BS 3x90, 1x100, 5x95, 5x90
SVJx5, RVJx2
5x30m sprints (~4s per 30)

And that was it. Then 8 hours later when i'm driving home, I realised I had this weird thing going on in my right pec. It's a kind of searing pain. It scares me because last time I had this was when I tore my intercostals and I had to stop training completely for weeks before it healed. Back then I made it worse by training thru it. Hope this is nothing and it goes away but i'm going to be cautious. Bother.

Anyway the sprints were good. I've never been this close to breaking 4s. Which is remarkable because I haven't been sprinting for months and this was the first time. So hopefully once i'm done cutting and I work my sprinting harder i'll be under 4s.

Just wondering, what do you run 30m sprints?  That distance is almost immeasurable as far as hand-timing goes and thus really hard to gauge improvement.  It doesn't even let you hit top speed.  I doubt Usain Bolt could hit 4s for 5 reps without spikes. 

Why not just run 60m and 100m sprints.  They will allow you to measure your improvement with much less noise, allow you to work on accelerating to much faster speed, and have measurably good benefits for body competition, which you are concerned with...  I would be afraid an athlete training his self timed 30m is training moreso his ability to reflexively react to his stop-watch press than actually training his legs to get stronger...

I didn't take any chances last night and I taped up my chest before bed just in case I had torn something. It meant I could only sleep upright because leaning to the side would pull the tape apart which would cause pain. Now i'm not sure if the discomfort i'm feeling is because i've taped my chest, or because i've torn/strained an intercostal/pec.

I still have NO idea how I picked up the injury. I woke up fine so it must have been during training. All I did was squats, jumps and sprints. Any of those could have caused it. But it didn't manifest itself until hours later when I realised I had hurt myself.

Tomorrow is bball training, so i'll try to take it easy. I don't lift til tuesday anyway so hopefully by then it's all healed up. But what i'll do on tuesday is take off the tape and see if it feels good, and if it does, then i'll train.

Great deal of quad soreness after teh sprints. It's been ages since i've had these.

Didn't deal well with the injury scare, I kinda binged today. Ate some m&ms and bag of crisps. I hate myself .. lol.

Anyway, gonna try get some rest.