Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 1467207 times)

maxent · « **Reply #4545 on:** January 08, 2019, 12:20:38 am »

sorry that was per km pace not miles. I dont know what a mile is

i can do real world running at slow pace better but on TM it's harder getting a good warmup b/c it's locking you into a speed at all times. but lately running any pace just doesn't seem feasible .. im not sure why, my calf starts bugging out. it might be an over-use thing going on

Thought about it more and im pretty sure running has been good to me but ive reached the point of diminishing returns with it very quickly b/c of competing recovery resources. Something like limiting my daily running to 5km but trying to improve speed will help me more. To get fitness i won't get it from running but perhaps from a workout like the following:
- Treadmill run (or road if i run to the gym) 30 min (at around 5-6min/km pace)
- Row 30 min (for a given HR goal even tho i don't trust these gadgets for that .. will figure it out somehow)
- Bike 30 min.

That's a 90 minute 'long' cardio workout without the problems of trying to do a long run at a too slow pace that the total mileage is embarrassingly low (like 10-12km). It has better carry over to bball because the running is more specific to the way i feel during games (ded lol) and with the cross training of the rowing for upper body and bike to take fatigue out of beating up joints that running more would entail. win win?

maxent · « **Reply #4546 on:** January 08, 2019, 07:52:47 pm »

Bodyweight(AM): 84.4kg (9 Jan)
Diet compliance: 5/5 days
Daily Squat: 53/53 days
Daily Run: 53/53 days
Basketball skill work:

Morning:

 Fast TM run - 5km total (see notes) @ 4:46/km pace

Noon:

  BS 6x120, 1x155, 1x150, 10x130(PR)
  BX 14x70kg(+band, PR)

Evening:

Notes:

First TM run at the gym. I just wanted to check it out, in theory it should be better because of A/C and better commercial treadmill. In practice it was okay but nothing great. Ran 1km at 12.5-12.6km, shoe lace came undone, did it up and ran another 3km at 12.6km/hr (4:46/km). Took a rest for a minute and did another km just faster (4:27/km) than my current race pace goal of 4:30/km. Done. Hard run, but, feels more productive than wasting my time with pointless runs i'd been doing too much of with no concept of progression. I need to know every thing i do in training has a purpose and running lost that along the way when i got seduced by slow running. The idea you can do it easier and get benefits sounds good on paper i must admit. It's prob fine for runners who just need to autoreg and limit their training intensity. It doesn't apply to me because im not a runner with that problem.
Reconsidering whether it was my aerobic ability or my anaerobic ability that limits my performance in basketball. What if i have got it wrong and my aerobic fitness was fine the whole time but i needed to focus on anaerobic? These harder fast runs are probably better for training both though, so that's another plus point.

adarqui · « **Reply #4547 on:** January 08, 2019, 10:22:24 pm »

good point.

you should probably get an oxygen desaturation mask & hit the battle ropes hard for 3 x 30s.

adarqui · « **Reply #4548 on:** January 08, 2019, 11:45:32 pm »

Quote from: adarqui on January 08, 2019, 10:22:24 pm

good point.

you should probably get an oxygen desaturation mask & hit the battle ropes hard for 3 x 30s.

if you want strong conditioning, you'll want to improve your aerobic base. there's plenty of ways to do that. running slow+long/frequently isn't the only way, but it's one of the best, easiest, and most effective. it's so easy that it's hard. people want to feel like they worked out hard, it's black magic that jogging for 1 hour real slow can improve your conditioning. but it's not black magic, it targets the heart, which responds very well to such long duration low stress activities -> every beat is a rep. the goal is to run easy (conversational) that the heart fills with as much blood as possible per beat, causing it to adapt to pump more blood per beat, at any exercise intensity.

plenty of "fit moms" & crossfit folks work out hard every day for example, but can't handle a game of basketball. training like that is easy.. :/

overanalysis can be a real problem. i'm all for you figuring it out tho.. so, find something that works & get results. but saying you've reached diminishing returns or something isn't for you, after only a few weeks .. plus saying you need to "see a progression" etc, is a little frustrating.

brb yelling at kingfish for not progressing his daily squatting to 800 lb by now..

i think he's a good example.. find something you can do daily, and just do it. don't switch shit up often, don't do all kinds of weird crazy cool shit, just pick a few things and do it daily, to perfection. if you can run hard daily, go for it. but most people can't.

in addition to that, normal "basketball people" play basketball daily, that's their daily squatting, or their daily running.

pc!

Coges · « **Reply #4549 on:** January 08, 2019, 11:58:31 pm »

Quote from: maxent on January 08, 2019, 12:20:38 am

running has been good to me but ive reached the point of diminishing returns

C'mon man.

Coges · « **Reply #4550 on:** January 09, 2019, 12:06:59 am »

Quote from: adarqui on January 08, 2019, 11:45:32 pm

Quote from: adarqui on January 08, 2019, 10:22:24 pm
good point.

you should probably get an oxygen desaturation mask & hit the battle ropes hard for 3 x 30s.

if you want strong conditioning, you'll want to improve your aerobic base. there's plenty of ways to do that. running slow+long/frequently isn't the only way, but it's one of the best, easiest, and most effective. it's so easy that it's hard. people want to feel like they worked out hard, it's black magic that jogging for 1 hour real slow can improve your conditioning. but it's not black magic, it targets the heart, which responds very well to such long duration low stress activities -> every beat is a rep. the goal is to run easy (conversational) that the heart fills with as much blood as possible per beat, causing it to adapt to pump more blood per beat, at any exercise intensity.

plenty of "fit moms" & crossfit folks work out hard every day for example, but can't handle a game of basketball. training like that is easy.. :/

overanalysis can be a real problem. i'm all for you figuring it out tho.. so, find something that works & get results. but saying you've reached diminishing returns or something isn't for you, after only a few weeks .. plus saying you need to "see a progression" etc, is a little frustrating.

brb yelling at kingfish for not progressing his daily squatting to 800 lb by now..

i think he's a good example.. find something you can do daily, and just do it. don't switch shit up often, don't do all kinds of weird crazy cool shit, just pick a few things and do it daily, to perfection. if you can run hard daily, go for it. but most people can't.

in addition to that, normal "basketball people" play basketball daily, that's their daily squatting, or their daily running.

pc!

This ^^^

Coming from someone who's not a runner but tried to join the "squad", running slow is an absolute mind fuck. It's embarrassing, there's no ego to it and sometimes you can be confused with someone who broke into a fast walk. It absolutely works though.

maxent · « **Reply #4551 on:** January 09, 2019, 12:30:24 am »

Ok lemme summarise what i'm actually trying to claim here. I think (internet?) running dogma has behind it two driving beliefs:
- mileage per week (more is better)
- slow long runs (slower is better)

and im finding that this running dogma has some underlying assumptions which are not explicitly stated but once accounted for make it infeasible for me:

 - it presupposes you're mainly a runner which necessarily entails BEING an actual runner
  -- training only running,
  -- having a runners build (light)

these assumptions don't apply to me (anymore?) and teh heavier and weight trained (powerful etc) i get the further i go from these principles because lots of mileage while training other things (daily squat max, basketball in-season training, ) just don't see it working out. It also doesn't suit me pyschologically because if training economy is at a premium (and it very much is) - i dont have the training time for following orthodox running good practices above..

gotta go, but im not saying orthodox running isn't the right way for a runner. im claiming it's unworkable for me having tried it and finding it doesn't suit me. i was running pretty much intuitively to start with but now im going to go back to that....

Plus andrew all your arguments for long slow running - i just hear do bike / rowing instead, much less beating up of joints and easier to fit into normal (not solely running) training!

edit, but the thing which really cofnuses me about the dogma is the idea that 'longer runs' build fitness but these people intentionally leave out what they mean by long - is it duration? is it miles? if it's both then sorry i can't do it. you'd make every beginner run LONGER just because they're slow runners initially. how does that make sense? if it's only duration then why dont you fucking say so? why so vague? useless. now if it's duration if i take 2 hours to do a 8km run say, does that 'work' when i cud have done 5km in 25 minutes and gone home. im sure a good running coach woudl be able to answer my questions and even help me out but im kinda done trying to unravel running dogma (my youtube recommendations are like 99% running spam now which im already sick of). tbh im not sure these ppl have any secret sauce about running, their advice comes from ppl who are doing the same thing over and over and it's not clear what part of that advice is good and what just works because doing anything a lot will work ..

maxent · « **Reply #4552 on:** January 09, 2019, 02:16:19 am »

Quote from: Coges on January 09, 2019, 12:06:59 am

Coming from someone who's not a runner but tried to join the "squad", running slow is an absolute mind fuck. It's embarrassing, there's no ego to it and sometimes you can be confused with someone who broke into a fast walk. It absolutely works though.

just don't understand the point bro. why spend an hour doing something you could get done in less than half the time. and if you're just going for distance then at my version of SLOW SPEED it would take literally 2 hours or more. I can understand mo farah doing a long run of 2 hours and doing like a good fraction of a marathon. at my slow speed i would be there all day to get to 10km .. no sense made whatsoever

maxent · « **Reply #4553 on:** January 09, 2019, 02:22:27 am »

Today i was too weak to squat a 3RM of 150kg (got 3x147.5kg yesterday) and im prob gonna put it down to the hard run this morning eating into my performance. However the funny thing is i was able to progress my 10rm just fine, getting 10x130kg which is a lifetime PR (and the 127.5kg was the same yesterday and so on forth). Plug in the 1rm calculator app on my phone and it says i shud have a 172.5kg max - lol yea alright, that's why i racked 150kg after the first rep cos i didn't think i would get a clean 2nd leave alone a 3rd. So what's going on? It's just the same thing we've been talking about -- the illusion of progress / productive training by doing something easier just to say you're making progress even tho there is almost zero translation between longer sets and runs to shorter more intense ones. I buy in to the longer rep sets though, cos it's nice to make progress regularly even if it's just fools gold to take it for anything other than what it is. something holistic would just make regular PRs as part of training and the problem with longer runs (and being specific here duration) just runs into the same problem that as you increase speed it becomes harder, so where is the progress?

LBSS · « **Reply #4554 on:** January 09, 2019, 05:34:12 am »

Quote from: maxent on January 08, 2019, 12:20:38 am

sorry that was per km pace not miles. I dont know what a mile is

i can do real world running at slow pace better but on TM it's harder getting a good warmup b/c it's locking you into a speed at all times. but lately running any pace just doesn't seem feasible .. im not sure why, my calf starts bugging out. it might be an over-use thing going on
Thought about it more and im pretty sure running has been good to me but ive reached the point of diminishing returns with it very quickly b/c of competing recovery resources. Something like limiting my daily running to 5km but trying to improve speed will help me more. To get fitness i won't get it from running but perhaps from a workout like the following:
- Treadmill run (or road if i run to the gym) 30 min (at around 5-6min/km pace)
- Row 30 min (for a given HR goal even tho i don't trust these gadgets for that .. will figure it out somehow)
- Bike 30 min.

That's a 90 minute 'long' cardio workout without the problems of trying to do a long run at a too slow pace that the total mileage is embarrassingly low (like 10-12km). It has better carry over to bball because the running is more specific to the way i feel during games (ded lol) and with the cross training of the rowing for upper body and bike to take fatigue out of beating up joints that running more would entail. win win?

counterpoint: you should not be embarrassed by the speed your body needs to work at! everyone has to start somewhere. you are, despite all your second-guessing and overanalysis, a patient and diligent person. i really think that you're best off starting with no ambition other than to just get consistent with running easy. on that note i'll contradict adarq a little bit: if 9-10 kph is the easiest pace for you and slower paces are harder, that's okay. do what feels right and mix things up later. over time i believe you'll get more out of running 30+ mins at 10 km/hr consistently than trying to force 90 minute cardio complexes.

maxent · « **Reply #4555 on:** January 09, 2019, 05:58:49 am »

I spose it's the cognitive dissonance of internalising all these maxims:

- more miles more good
- slower is good

and if you accept them as is - then for a beginner it's saying do something impossible because you have to get a lot of miles and yet you're being told to do it very very very slowly (in an absolute sense). you can't do both. you can do more miles but you are already slow to begin with. take andrew's pace for his 45 min long run, that's not far from my tempo pace. i can see how it would work for him to do a submax run at that pace and still get enough miles in.

unpickling another assumption is prob that you're better than average a runner (starting out or whatever) from the get-go and able to get a reasonable amount of weekly mileage strictly observing the above maxims. I watched one video where the guy suggested getting a weekly mileage of 100 miles (i think that's around 160km but idk) - but lets figure out what that averages to per day, 22km? even half that is way too much (and i did that for a while) - the only way i could get 10-15km/day was doing two-a-days and i don't think that was sustainable (for me).

but yea im glad i thought to write all this stuff cos it didnt make sense to me and now having written it all out i can see why, the rules are mutually contradictory. literally doesn't work unless you're already a runner and in which case you don't need any rule to tell you how to structure your training..

if someone could tell me how to get to my running goal of a sub 20 5k while doing at most 5km/day then i'd be happy to listen. obviously orthdox running would have me doing 50-100km a week and yea that's not my thing not right now .. maybe in the winter (i actually would love to do a winter of just focusing on running)

LBSS · « **Reply #4556 on:** January 09, 2019, 06:17:26 am »

they're only dissonant if you have an unrealistic time table and targets. slower is good, at first, when your body is just getting used to running, getting in the habit and feel of it. i spend months in 2017 running much too hard and too short for my fitness level. even elite runners spend most of their time running at "slow" paces, although as adarq pointed out what's slow for them might be very fast for you and me. but they point is they are (1) freaks and (2) the product of years of patient training.

more mileage is good but that is relative to where you're starting. 100 miles a week is extremely high.

you probably can't run under 20:00 for 5k without getting up over 50 km/week, or never running longer than the target distance. but given where you're starting from, you'd probably benefit a lot from far less than that. and, much like squatting, the benefits may not show up overnight, but they do show up eventually. last spring, i played ultimate for the first time since the previous fall when i hurt my shoulder. in the interim i'd been running 25-40 km/week, no speed work or anything, and doing no other exercise to speak of. at the end of the second or third point i was startled to realize that i wasn't winded. i was, in fact, in much better aerobic shape than i'd been a few months earlier. take that for what it's worth.

maxent · « **Reply #4557 on:** January 09, 2019, 06:25:39 am »

But it doesn't shift the dissonance. If i'm at low miles (because athletic background) b/c im slow then it would make sense to progress my speed, no? And yet of the the various variables that's one you're being told to go backwards in.

Literally all of my objections amount to this, is it ok to do a 40 minute run where you're only getting 5km of distance covered? how does this help make me a faster runner? also if you look at basketball studies, the average HR for a player over the entire match (including dead periods) is 160-180bpm. So would it make sense to do more training closer to that range than say 140. I know what the argument is for long slow running (if you accept it and even if i did) it runs into a wall cos weekly mileage wud be so low to not offer much benefit to faster runs. tbh i can see how it 'could work' if you were sufficiently fast then going submax you can still get a decent amount of km done

maxent · « **Reply #4558 on:** January 09, 2019, 06:29:28 am »

but the worst thing is indecision, so yea lemme just do it a different way. i think that's more fun anyway to work it out on your own and find your own path. i followed orthodox advice when it came to lifting and it took doing a crazy daily squat experiment to make some progress that i just don't find much faith in orthodox training advice, no offense to anyone .. i can see the limitations for how well it can work for someone who is not the ideal candidate. i'll stop just short of calling it nonsensical tho.

Mikey · « **Reply #4559 on:** January 09, 2019, 07:13:54 am »

Quote from: maxent on January 09, 2019, 02:22:27 am

Today i was too weak to squat a 3RM of 150kg (got 3x147.5kg yesterday) and im prob gonna put it down to the hard run this morning eating into my performance. However the funny thing is i was able to progress my 10rm just fine, getting 10x130kg which is a lifetime PR (and the 127.5kg was the same yesterday and so on forth). Plug in the 1rm calculator app on my phone and it says i shud have a 172.5kg max - lol yea alright, that's why i racked 150kg after the first rep cos i didn't think i would get a clean 2nd leave alone a 3rd. So what's going on? It's just the same thing we've been talking about -- the illusion of progress / productive training by doing something easier just to say you're making progress even tho there is almost zero translation between longer sets and runs to shorter more intense ones. I buy in to the longer rep sets though, cos it's nice to make progress regularly even if it's just fools gold to take it for anything other than what it is. something holistic would just make regular PRs as part of training and the problem with longer runs (and being specific here duration) just runs into the same problem that as you increase speed it becomes harder, so where is the progress?

For the squat if you have a theoretical max of 172.5kg based on 130kgx10 reps but struggle with 150kg it's probably because you're not used to lifting the heavier weight. Your body adapts to what you train it at. If you started practicing heavy singles and also worked on doing half squats with 200+kg to get used to the weight on your back I wouldn't be surprised if you came close to 172.5kg in a couple of months. However, in rare circumstances you might be an anomaly where you're just great at being able to push out 10 reps. When I first started lifting I was mentored by one of my mum's friends who was a bodybuilder. He could easily rep out 12 reps of 120kg on bench but would struggle with benching anything 140kg+ because he was used to doing 8-20 reps with short rests (<1 minute) between sets.

Edit- Congrats on the

. As for running I think you should just experiment and do what you think is best. If your goal is to run 5km in sub 20 then get used to running for 20 minutes and keep increasing the speed.

To run 5km in 20 minutes or less you need to be running at 15km/h (4:00 minute 1km speed).
https://www.depicus.com/swim-bike-run/pace-conversion-chart

Atm you can't run that fast so start off running at 10km/h for 20 minute.
The next session try running at 10.3, 10.6, 10.9 etc. If the 0.3 intervals are too much reduce it down to 0.2 or even 0.1. Once you stall you can start doing other things like adarqui suggested e.g. speed work and longer runs.

Just my opinion (I have no distance running experience!!!).

Adarq.org

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Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 1467207 times)

maxent

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chasing athleticism - summer 19

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