Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 1464282 times)

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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2820 on: April 27, 2016, 01:23:13 pm »
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if the green line is 3m, you're getting closer to 2.5m. measurement is to the rear-most heel, not toes.

ETA: where you going in the states?

Oh right then 2.5m it is.. damn that's depressing lol.

10 days time.. yikes, that snuck up!
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

FP

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2821 on: April 27, 2016, 02:26:17 pm »
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Vids, there was a prob with it cutting off the end, reuploaded..

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkxVn_DsElY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkxVn_DsElY</a>



Do you think you have psoas weakness or poor hamstring flexibility? On my broad jumps my feet land way in front of my body, I almost fall backwards sometimes. I think it's because I did long jump in high school.

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2822 on: April 27, 2016, 03:24:53 pm »
+1
Yeah he doesn't pull his leg to the chest at all after he jumps... if he would do that and then reach forward he would gain so much more.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2823 on: April 27, 2016, 10:59:01 pm »
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Lately im sure the way to achieve the specific kind of movement efficiency I need is just pouring hours and hours into moving on the court. In the past that was always something i avoided; utter boredom lol. but things are changed. Now i'm seriously focusing on becoming a better player which is a different thing than lifting weights to jump an inch or two higher without also getting quicker meant no improvement in real athletic terms and thus no carry over to basketball. Squats arent gonna make me faster .. they just make me jump higher cause i can produce more force but that's useless without a commensurate increase in speed. I wont get game time dunks, blocks or rebounds out of those vertical gains unless i get much much much faster. Movement efficiency at basketball movements will help me more than anything else. Not broad jumps, not medball throws, not squats, powercleans, ultimately these wont help.  Nothing but doing the same on-court moves over and over and over and over and over will. Sounds boring :( but the results will be worth it if i persevere. I think i can commit to that. I have the motivation (winning next year), what I need now to find a way to make it sustainable and progressive over time. That's challenging though, in a different way to lifting weights .. it's "easy" but less "arousing" .. "simple" but "draining".  And there is no "payoff" that's gratifying like landing a great dunk but latent in something that will happen on the sports field months later.  Training if formalise it into a series of drills or workouts and just repeat them over time it will take the guess/work out of it and it becomes habit and routine? I guess that's the key.

This. Isn't movement efficiency just a fancy way of saying coordination? What better way to get basketball related movement efficiency than by playing basketball.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2824 on: April 27, 2016, 11:14:01 pm »
+1
It's that more or less. Was watching the Atlanta- Boston playoffs series and you see these (non superstar) guys moving in such fluidity AND power, it just made it clear to me that there is no way to get that sort of movement without drilling the same moves over and over again until you've got so good at turning the intensity on and off at will. It's actually quite beautiful and I think to me that's what athleticism is really about. Not dunking, just powerful, efficient movement. Beautiful game.
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2825 on: April 28, 2016, 02:54:54 am »
+3
^^^ movement efficiency is not simply coordination and can't be trained simply by playing basketball.  If he is weak or tight and lacks ability but plays lots of basketball he will get more efficient at moving incorrectly.  Sure he will be "faster" on defense but he still won't be fast.  Training movement efficiency means breaking movements down outside of the confines of the game so he can get stronger and more mobile and actually move correctly....

This change of heart away from squatting and lifting is great but like always the pendulum is now swinging too far to the other direction.   Playing ball will not turn entropy into a good athlete.  While squats lie far away on the specificity curve and bounds like closer but not as specific as basketball drills they all have their use.

Biggest thing you need to do is drop the word ME.  I never ME bound.  I bound 10 meters in 3 jumps.  I never ME jump.   I jump 45 inches.   I never ME sprint.   Start having fun with movement efficiency.  Bounds, sideways hops, defensive side shuffle for time in a distance, jump across the key, get more efficient by working at a lower intensity level w higher volume.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2826 on: April 28, 2016, 02:57:42 am »
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But also i cant "just play loads of basketball" even if i wanted to! MAYBE i can get one competitive game a week (if a team wants me .. not my situation presently :(). Maybe i can play pickup on sundays (not worth getting out of bed for really.. it's low quality). When i say doing the same thing over and over, i mean literally that, me myself and I, having a basketball, on a basketball court, doing reps of the same thing over and over. Just so we are on the same page!

And i'm happy to do every thing you've written !
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2827 on: April 28, 2016, 03:12:49 am »
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Yeah he doesn't pull his leg to the chest at all after he jumps... if he would do that and then reach forward he would gain so much more.

HOw about this .. i do a drill where i focus on high knees (height or whetever). A drill on speed.  And then maybe a drill for max distance. And that way i have both bases covered, can work on different facets instead of trying to do too much at once and getting nothing accomplished at once

It's interesting adding in exercises the horizontal plane (with bounds). i never did that before ... just dunking and even those i never did them with a runup just a couple of steps at most. so yeah this is a new direction for me in training ... im a novice / newbie in the H plane.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 03:17:32 am by maxent »
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2828 on: April 28, 2016, 03:26:50 am »
+1
Well, you can do stationary knee-to-chest tuck jumps, see how difficult they feel for you/how fast and fluid you can do them?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URKY0QXuO38" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URKY0QXuO38</a>

That should be a premium when you broad jump. I think I personally am pretty (somewhat) good at them when I broad jump (check out my knee pull to chest after the take off):

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASM8WfH_8-k" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASM8WfH_8-k</a>

Also, check out how much I stretch out during the take off. I'm not saying I have perfect form (Toddday can chime in and critique it, since I don't have a long broad jump anyway) - but I imagine if you could replicate that more, you would get further. In your case it seems like you're using 50% of what you got (assuming you want a ME broad jump). If not, if you were doing them submaximally, then fine, but at least stick the landings, don't collapse when you land - you'll get a great training effect from that alone - knowing how to take in that eccentric force of the landing (kinda like in a forwards depth drop).

Also, these might be nice:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zim4W1ij9g0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zim4W1ij9g0</a>

Andrew surely has a video of tuck jumps himself, but I couldn't find it.

And one more thing:

Try to do this thing:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAUwgrazCg4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAUwgrazCg4</a>

To quote Kelly:

Quote
In contrast, strengthening the hip flexors can be advantageous for people in posterior tilt as strengthening them will put your pelvis at a position that is more advantageous to engage your glutes. See if you have sufficient strength in your hip flexors. Place one foot up on a box so that your thigh is up above parallel. Then raise the foot up and hold it for 20 seconds without bending your support leg or squirming around.

If this test is at all difficult you could probably benefit from stronger hip flexors. To strengthen them, simply incorporate that test for a couple of sets 3 days per week. Another exercise I've found very helpful for posterior tilt is something I call a "hip suck". Lie down on your back with your legs straight and touch the area where your upper thigh inserts into the hip. Next, without bending your knee, attempt to draw the hip into the socket of the hip joint. You should feel a deep feeling in the groin. Try to relax your thigh while doing this. Hold the position for 10 secs. Repeat for 10 contractions. You can also do this standing up just make sure you don't compensate by bending your plant leg and leaning sideways.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 03:36:13 am by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2829 on: April 28, 2016, 03:44:54 am »
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acole did mention think high knees and the next time i did them i did try that. However, i remember the feeling of unstability in the subsequent landings .. like i wasn't able to land as safely or as well. So i thought maybe my body is automatically doing the exercise in a way that suits my build and there isn't much point in trying to do it in a different way

btw i do think i made a huge mistake in specialising in 1d.. just up and down, whether squatting of dunking or virtually 99% of all my jumps. An RVJ for me was just a way to get more out of my hips swinging thru, not using (running) speed into the jump per se. So yeah the reason im a one dimensional athlete is because that's how ive trained forever except for the odd sprint.

Speaking of sprints, yesterday i did full court fast break layup drills and it felt different from the last time i did it. Like it was submaxy even tho i was going fast i was more in control? That was new.
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2830 on: April 28, 2016, 03:49:54 am »
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If you're feeling important differences just doing silly, poor form plyo work etc, imagine what the difference would be if you were to incorporate actual good plyo work (multi-directional jumps, bounds, donkey ankle bounces, sprints).

Heck, if I were you, with a good strength base but looking slow, I would do one of the VJB novice or beginner plyo program. Whenever I did those they felt so good, and I'm more reactive than you/quicker/faster (don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to be arrogant here or anything).

The point is that you'd have a lot to gain from doing novice/beginner plyo work for a while, IMO. In fact, you might be amazed at the results, in your particular situation. Heck, even Air Alert could work for you.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2831 on: April 28, 2016, 04:28:45 am »
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I mean even depth jumps are just in the V plane which ive done consistently. Now thinking imagine if i had made the switch to a variant also involving the H plane. Damn that would have been more beneficial for my weaknesses?! All good, i'll implement some of these things now..
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2832 on: April 28, 2016, 05:02:45 am »
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lol... what I say, and what you take out from it...

"Low level" plyos would be great for you - you can do a high volume of them (which is what you need, in your case) at a submax intensity.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2833 on: April 28, 2016, 05:12:34 am »
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lol... what I say, and what you take out from it...

"Low level" plyos would be great for you - you can do a high volume of them (which is what you need, in your case) at a submax intensity.

haha. sorry. so like tuck jumps? they  cool. what else? lets make a list
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2834 on: April 28, 2016, 05:16:16 am »
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Hmm but wait. I NEED more horizontal plane work. these sound like normal up and down jumps? I dont want to focus on jumping higher right now. I need SPEED, can resume working on maxing vertical once gotten faster..
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.