Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 1464310 times)

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Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2685 on: April 04, 2016, 08:44:33 am »
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T0dday, I think I know where Maxent is coming from in this one. I think the question needs to be, where does the average Joe (so to speak) make up for the lack of God given LeBron like talent? I think this is behind Maxent's thinking in that his biggest impact on the court will be as an "athletic beast" (feel free to tell me if I'm off the mark). I felt pretty much the same way my entire ball playing career.

Well, LBSS already made the point for me but I'll fill you in here.   I totally disagree with this.  As far as the argument that "athletic beast" is the best way for him to be as good as possible at basketball...  I mean, he is a rail-thin 6'3 guy.  If he wants to perform as good as possible at next years tournament then he should hire a shooting coach and become a dead-eye shooter.  That's the biggest bang for your buck in basketball for all but the elite.  He shouldn't be complaining about how he couldn't dunk in games but instead should be complaining about only going 5-13 from 3pt land.   His "athletic beast" goal is certainly a terrible goal for being as good a basketball player as possible unless there is something I don't know about Aus bball.   HOWEVER...  I don't care.   I'm not a basketball trainer.  It's his prerogative how he wants to improve.   I can't really judge him because I have played in leagues and honestly if I can't catch alley oops it's not fun for me either even if I am not as helpful to my team.   I always feel a little bad playing in a league and not practicing actual basketball enough when I go 2-8 from the line in the fourth quarter...   BUT, it's for fun and if he want's to make his impact as an athletic beast I won't criticize him for not maximizing his bang for his back as a basketball player and instead trying to get better in the way that's fun for him...

That said...  Yeah I don't think he knows how to go about being an athletic beast.

Kind of disagree. I actually think the biggest bang for buck for someone who is not a natural scorer is to get inside and do the stuff that no one else wants to do. Go where there's less competition. Everyone wants to jack up shots from way downtown or drive and pretend they're in the NBA. It's easy to capitalise on these faults and help your team in the process. I wasn't a natural scorer but managed to average nearly 15 points a game in my last 5-6 seasons or so. Most of this was done off the back of hard work inside (I was also 90% from the free throw line).

Agree 100% that the "athletic beast" part is going to be hard and potentially completely different from what Maxent expects it to be.

Quick side note. I remember every season the first 2-3 games I played I would quite easily get bumped out of position under the rim. Almost as if I was 20kgs lighter. I think there's a lot to be said for playing weekly and getting match fit.
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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2686 on: April 04, 2016, 06:43:03 pm »
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Kind of disagree. I actually think the biggest bang for buck for someone who is not a natural scorer is to get inside and do the stuff that no one else wants to do. Go where there's less competition. Everyone wants to jack up shots from way downtown or drive and pretend they're in the NBA. It's easy to capitalise on these faults and help your team in the process. I wasn't a natural scorer but managed to average nearly 15 points a game in my last 5-6 seasons or so. Most of this was done off the back of hard work inside (I was also 90% from the free throw line).

Well, this is digression from the topic but still interesting.  You may be right as you play basketball in Australia and I don't but here at least your advice is good strategy to help in one game but not effective if you have an entire year before tournament play.  In Los Angeles there are always really good "amateurs" you have to deal with because of the nature of the city (you go to karoake and the singer is excellent cause they came here to sing, a flag football league will have offseason players who are trying to make the pros staying sharp, etc).  The leagues I have played in always have a few 6'8 guys who make things difficult for someone under 6' like myself.  Inevitably a zone is played and when your discovered as an offensive liability you absolutely kill your team by not knocking down open shots.  This is true as well at higher levels - there are about 10 guys in the NBA making it despite being offensive liabilities (eg can't knock down open 3's and jumpers) and they are extremely tall and strong (eg Deandre Jordan) and even they would be 100x more valuable if they could.   Maxent is 6'3 165.   I don't think this role is available for him.   But again I don't know Aus bball, I just know he wants to be a beast and I'm ok with that whether it's optimal for bball or not. 

Quote
Quick side note. I remember every season the first 2-3 games I played I would quite easily get bumped out of position under the rim. Almost as if I was 20kgs lighter. I think there's a lot to be said for playing weekly and getting match fit.

Good point.  Yes, when we think of movement efficiency we should think of the top half of it as acquired from the game itself.  He should spend about 5-6 months on basic movement but needs about equal time on the court. 

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2687 on: April 04, 2016, 07:17:04 pm »
+4
Plyo pushups and medball throws . prob wont help me .. i know because ive tried the throws and it honestly was the biggest waste of time, i cant name a single thing i felt i got from them except bothering my back. if we're talking about wasting time that's def one of them.

This comment is absolute gold and illustrates your problem better than anything else you have said.   Here's story.   Proper med ball throws require strong powerful glutes that can be used to rotatationally to drive you up (unlike your favorite hip thrust), coordination and core strength to transfer power, triple extension and hip-pop where you continue to fire hip extensors for far more power than a quad dominant athlete like yourself can achieve, and a strong upper body to finish the toss.   Sounds like an EXCELLENT exercise for an athlete.   However, a quad dominant athlete, who doesn't know how to use glutes, doesn't triple extend, and just relies on a hip hinge that is really back hinge tries than and says "wow what a useless exercise, I'll think I'll go do bench press". 

This IS the problem.  Movement efficiency means your need to learn HOW to move THEN get more powerful at it.  Doing what you think "works" like bench means your are training movements that work with your plodding efficiency levels.   It's hard work to learn how to move.  But it's possible.  You are going to have to find out how to use your glutes, again possible but hard.  Impossible if you waste time along the way.   

Look at video of both of us.  We are equally lean (maybe I have a bit more fat but not that much).  Your 6'3.  I'm 5'11.  Our upper bodies as defined your metric are not that different in strength (225 on bench is all I would bet I am capable of right now).  My quads are smaller than yours.  Your might be able to out squat me.  But I weigh 215 and you weigh 165.   Where is that weight?  Primarily glutes and core and it's why med ball throws hurt your back but potentiate me to jump higher.

Quote
I was told push presses would build my athleticism for bgasketbll but i had a bodyweight push press (not for reps mind you) and honestly i cant say that helped me either. So i'm really not sure about all of these things anymore. All i know is muscle is real and everything else is just conjecture. Look the part and at least you can win the mind game. A 6'3 dude with a big bench and squat who can also play a bit will go further in instilling confidence in his teammates and fear in his opponents. Am i wrong? Maybe, but it's not like im denying i'm an athletic nobody in dire need of movement efficiency..

I mean if your suggesting that getting bigger triceps and chest will intimidate opponents that's a strange argument honestly.   Why not just cut your hair and get a bunch of prison tattoos?   I mean if we are gonna go for scary why not go all out?  The benefit to the push press is that you can cheat.  Athletic movement is basically cheating.  If you can strict press 150 and push press 225 that shows you have some ability to transfer power through your core.  You  use bw ratios a bit too much in my opinion.   If you can bench 300 pounds at 175 and diet down to 150 to achieve a 2x bw bench instead of raise your bench to 350 you have just abused the sinclair scale to make gains that are not there.   Squat to BW ratio makes some sense but bragging about a bw pushpress really doesn't because you are not lifting your body.   You had a 165 pushpress at 6'3.  Not impressive.  Push press 2 plates.


w do i fix or improve these problems. Before todday came ppl here were doing 10m sprints and stuff .. but we've gone the other direction since and done longer springs. tbh, i probably enjoyed doing those 20m sprints and miss them.. i wonder if they were better than half heartedly doing longer sprints which id ont really believe to be helping me. im pretty good on a fast break, i feel i can chase down anyone for a block.. and i can count the number of shots ive changed in fbs, even collecting transition rebounds .. however that's not wher ei need to improve.. it's the shorter distances, going from A to B where they're about 1-5m apart not the entire length of the court. Why shouldnt i be doing <5m sprints? if that's where i need the most improvement.. lol.

Were you not the one who asked "how do I time a 60m?" but now want to do <5m sprints even though they are completely unmeasurable?    <5m sprints are silly because they variance overwhelms the test.  You can just train your reaction time by itself.   Additionally you don't go from non-moving to moving as much in basketball as you think... You go from slightly moving to moving very fast which is different.  Well, maybe you don't but that's part of your problem.   Nothing wrong with you doing 5m shuttles though (5m left, 10m right, 5m back left etc).   Nothing wrong with L-cone drill, shuttles, broad jumps, bounds, etc.    The list for you IS long.  You have to pick a set of exercises to focus on where a few are measurable and a few require you to learn to move your body before you can perform well (like ball tosses).   The list is REALLY long and it depends where exactly you lack your ability. 

Here is what is honestly about 40% of the training we did on the weekend (not shown is a bunch of sprints, football drills, jumps, stretches, band work, band squats, core work, etc).   I even included a guy we are training at the end to try to convince you of med ball tosses.  He is the defensive end for the pittsburgh steelers and he is 6'5 310 pounds and he would destroy you in a 40yd dash (he just signed a 50 million deal).   He is an athletic beast.  Med ball tosses do not hurt his back.   This isn't a training program, this is just what training for movement efficiency looks like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIhaywsuSI0

***I do want to echo what Coges said.  This has to be mixed in with basketball training.  I would really reccomend you basically start at 95% ME 5% bball training and slowly transition to about 70% bball training by the time of your tournament.   You have to fix your glaring deficits BUT also have to figure out how to apply to to the court.

******Notice that I included a few athletes in the video.  Notice at 1:20 you see some broad jump work.  The first athete is hip/ankle dominant, the next quad dominant, and I'm glute dominant.  Notice how the quad dominant athlete goes just around 3 yards and I don't go much farther.  But then watch the next thing (3 consecutive hops).   Quad dominant guy can only go about 9 yards and it takes him much longer wheras on a good day I can go 11.5 - 12 yards and go much higher with shorter time on the ground and easily go high and far and over 4 yards on last jump.  It's not because I'm more "fast twitch" or more reactive or more explosive.  It's cause I move differently and it's a learnable skill that you can acquire.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 07:26:28 pm by T0ddday »

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2688 on: April 04, 2016, 09:14:11 pm »
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man, fuck ohio state.  :gtfo:
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2689 on: April 04, 2016, 11:32:29 pm »
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Kind of disagree. I actually think the biggest bang for buck for someone who is not a natural scorer is to get inside and do the stuff that no one else wants to do. Go where there's less competition. Everyone wants to jack up shots from way downtown or drive and pretend they're in the NBA. It's easy to capitalise on these faults and help your team in the process. I wasn't a natural scorer but managed to average nearly 15 points a game in my last 5-6 seasons or so. Most of this was done off the back of hard work inside (I was also 90% from the free throw line).

Well, this is digression from the topic but still interesting.  You may be right as you play basketball in Australia and I don't but here at least your advice is good strategy to help in one game but not effective if you have an entire year before tournament play.  In Los Angeles there are always really good "amateurs" you have to deal with because of the nature of the city (you go to karoake and the singer is excellent cause they came here to sing, a flag football league will have offseason players who are trying to make the pros staying sharp, etc).  The leagues I have played in always have a few 6'8 guys who make things difficult for someone under 6' like myself.  Inevitably a zone is played and when your discovered as an offensive liability you absolutely kill your team by not knocking down open shots.  This is true as well at higher levels - there are about 10 guys in the NBA making it despite being offensive liabilities (eg can't knock down open 3's and jumpers) and they are extremely tall and strong (eg Deandre Jordan) and even they would be 100x more valuable if they could.   Maxent is 6'3 165.   I don't think this role is available for him.   But again I don't know Aus bball, I just know he wants to be a beast and I'm ok with that whether it's optimal for bball or not. 

Yes, that role is not available. I need to contribute more than my height and length .. which isn't much because my lack of weight more than takes away the advantage if there was one present. +20kg >> +6" of reach.  I might have a couple of inches of reach more on my opponent but he may have 10-30kg on me .. and im not even super athletic or quick to take advantage of that weight mismatch. I know todday will disagree but when a 6'6" and 115kg guy posts up on you, doesnt matter that you can jump 35" if he's going to use his refined post skills against you.
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2690 on: April 05, 2016, 02:29:11 am »
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I know todday will disagree but when a 6'6" and 115kg guy posts up on you, doesnt matter that you can jump 35" if he's going to use his refined post skills against you.

Given that your 6'3 and he is 6'6 your giving away a little height but not that much.   Surprisingly I do agree that your ability to jump 35'' won't help much at all.  The two most important variables are your strength and your refined defensive post skills vs his refined post skills.   You can make up for quite a lot of weight/height with FUNCTIONAL strength (not your big bench press) and of course with extreme post skills.   Don't know how old you were in 1996 but Dennis Rodman guarded Shaq and neutralized him.   Dennis was functional strong as an ox, extremely skilled, and really annoying.  He could jump a bit but it certainly wasn't how he succeeded in defense...

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2691 on: April 05, 2016, 02:43:15 am »
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How can anyone be 6'3 165? I don't understand. I mean it's really hard to imagine someone like that, I've probably seen in the far past one or two guys like that but they could barely stand on their feet and were slow and uncoordinated as fuck.

By the way - I've rarely seen people use their hips properly when they do backwards med ball tosses. The VAST majority of them use their arms with the hips barely doing any work. Of all the people I know, I really really use the hips. Which is weird because of all the people I know, I don't use the hips at all on the powerclean. Very interesting how this is so different.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 02:48:02 am by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2692 on: April 05, 2016, 03:09:15 am »
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How can anyone be 6'3 165? I don't understand. I mean it's really hard to imagine someone like that, I've probably seen in the far past one or two guys like that but they could barely stand on their feet and were slow and uncoordinated as fuck.

By the way - I've rarely seen people use their hips properly when they do backwards med ball tosses. The VAST majority of them use their arms with the hips barely doing any work. Of all the people I know, I really really use the hips. Which is weird because of all the people I know, I don't use the hips at all on the powerclean. Very interesting how this is so different.

Well you feel like you use your hips... but how do you know that?  And who are the vast majority.   These NFL guys toss the 12lb ball almost 30 yards.   That's impossible if you only use arms...

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2693 on: April 05, 2016, 04:35:14 am »
+2
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iEuwMEfBWk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iEuwMEfBWk</a>

Here i am closer to 160 than 165. I was just under 163 i'd say. That was less than 2 weeks ago!
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2694 on: April 05, 2016, 05:55:47 am »
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How can anyone be 6'3 165? I don't understand. I mean it's really hard to imagine someone like that, I've probably seen in the far past one or two guys like that but they could barely stand on their feet and were slow and uncoordinated as fuck.

By the way - I've rarely seen people use their hips properly when they do backwards med ball tosses. The VAST majority of them use their arms with the hips barely doing any work. Of all the people I know, I really really use the hips. Which is weird because of all the people I know, I don't use the hips at all on the powerclean. Very interesting how this is so different.

Well you feel like you use your hips... but how do you know that?  And who are the vast majority.   These NFL guys toss the 12lb ball almost 30 yards.   That's impossible if you only use arms...

Try to take the word "only" less literal than you currently are taking it. Of course they use their hips, it's not 100% arms and 0% hips, just like in my case it isn't 0% arms and 100% hips. How do I know that? Watching video and feeling the complete extension/hyperextension. Some people end their hip extension movement and then they still continue moving their arms, and then release the med ball at the moment their arms stop moving. So it's a sequence where the hips aren't doing anything and if anything, they just added some "momentum" to the arms or whatever (try not to take this literal again, you know very well what I mean). The difference in timing might be (very) small, but it's there, and it makes a difference.

In my case, and a few other cases of a friend I was training with, the timing is perfect and it looks like an Olympic lift, a continuous movement where the medball is "launched" by the hips through the hands, but most of the time what I see is this lack of timing and the overuse of the arms to throw the ball.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 05:57:50 am by Raptor »
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2695 on: April 05, 2016, 12:30:52 pm »
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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iEuwMEfBWk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iEuwMEfBWk</a>

Here i am closer to 160 than 165. I was just under 163 i'd say. That was less than 2 weeks ago!

Those dunks look pretty decent... Get you some movement efficiency for a few more steps and you will be a beast...

LOL from Raptor about how it's impossible to be 6'3 165.   The formula is simple.  Be 6'3.  Smaller frame, lighter bones.  Be extremely lean.  Don't have a developed posterior chain (eg NO GLUTES).   Maxent checks off on all those.  Except he thinks he isn't lean.  That's a lie/delusion.  You don't be 6'3 165 and fat and dunk basketballs.   When he get's some glutes he will fly.

Or maxent you could just become a single leg jumper and stay super light...  I have seen high jumpers 6'5 155 who can clear 7'5''.   Of course at that weight their two legged jumps are pretty terrible.   

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2696 on: April 05, 2016, 12:34:40 pm »
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Try to take the word "only" less literal than you currently are taking it. Of course they use their hips, it's not 100% arms and 0% hips, just like in my case it isn't 0% arms and 100% hips. How do I know that? Watching video and feeling the complete extension/hyperextension. Some people end their hip extension movement and then they still continue moving their arms, and then release the med ball at the moment their arms stop moving. So it's a sequence where the hips aren't doing anything and if anything, they just added some "momentum" to the arms or whatever (try not to take this literal again, you know very well what I mean). The difference in timing might be (very) small, but it's there, and it makes a difference.

In my case, and a few other cases of a friend I was training with, the timing is perfect and it looks like an Olympic lift, a continuous movement where the medball is "launched" by the hips through the hands, but most of the time what I see is this lack of timing and the overuse of the arms to throw the ball.

Interesting.  I ask this because while the hips should fire it shouldn't be a hip throw OR an arm throw and some people don't get this.  Using your hips really isn't the challenge.  You can just move your pelvis back to forward ("hump the air") and boom you are using your hips.  And the ball won't go very high at all.  Just like anyone can do hip thrusts and use their hips but while it's a good strength exercise it doesn't really help to teach hip mechanics.  The challenge is use your hips while throwing the ball as high as possible, you must rotate your pelvis up with your glutes.   This really difficult for most people and when does correctly looks like a hip pop added on to an arm throw.  The challenge of using your hips forward and backward really is only important when the legs are not together (single leg jumping and sprinting). 

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2697 on: April 05, 2016, 12:36:40 pm »
+3
Yes, that role is not available. I need to contribute more than my height and length .. which isn't much because my lack of weight more than takes away the advantage if there was one present. +20kg >> +6" of reach.  I might have a couple of inches of reach more on my opponent but he may have 10-30kg on me .. and im not even super athletic or quick to take advantage of that weight mismatch. I know todday will disagree but when a 6'6" and 115kg guy posts up on you, doesnt matter that you can jump 35" if he's going to use his refined post skills against you.

BTW - I just talked to a friend who played pro-ball in Aus.  He told me that in NBL they simply do not call fouls.  LOL.  Wow.  So, if I was training you I would put you through a ton of training like you see in the clip but essentially train you like a football player since that sounds more appropriate to your country.  When you visit America I can try and take you to see some of the NBA guys training but I will be afraid you will go soft...

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2698 on: April 05, 2016, 04:03:20 pm »
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When he gets some glutes? Wasn't he saying that he's hip thrusting 200+ for reps? Doesn't sound like lack of glute development to me.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2699 on: April 05, 2016, 04:45:42 pm »
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When he gets some glutes? Wasn't he saying that he's hip thrusting 200+ for reps? Doesn't sound like lack of glute development to me.

The problem with using an exercise to gauge power.  He can't jump more than 30'' and he is incredibly slow.   Watch his dunk videos and you see a guy who has undeveloped glutes that don't fire.  Hip thrusts are a good glute activator but they use a small range of motion and the load doesn't necessarily equate to power very well.  I can get a good workout hip thrusting 225lbs or 505lbs - I have never "maxed" my hip thrust and don't need to.  One of the biggest evaluation mistakes you can make (and usually it's self evaluation where we make it) is when we assume that an athlete can do "X" so therefore that part of the body is clearly not the problem.   It usually comes from an athlete doing an isolation exercise of limited range of motion and assuming that means that muscle is not an issue.  Classic example is a slow sprinter with weak hamstrings who can do something silly like a "Natural GHR" assuming that "I don't have weak hamstrings so that can't be the issue" but not realizing that using your hamstrings as a knee flexor with your knees on the floor doesn't have much to do with hamstring power or development in hip extension during a sprint.  Watch an athlete move dynamically an locate where he has weakness rather than referring to a gym lift as evidence of anything.