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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2670 on: April 01, 2016, 04:50:36 am »
0
Depth jump 6x18"
BS 2x125, 0Fx132.5
JS 8x180 (lol)
PP 3x60, 1x70, 0Fx77.5
Depth Jump 6x18"

BP 2x90, 0Fx97.5
BS 6x102.5, 6x107.5

Notes:
Caught myself looking down in the mirror on my 132.5kg set .. threw me off balance .. not sure why i did that :/ Jump squats were just stupid. But i looked at my logs from last time i did them and i did a set of 170kg before attempting 180kg. And this time i used 4x20kgs per side, which prob explains why it felt so immovable. My mind was to put JS on maintenance but i didn't even accomplish that tbh. Just a shitty workout. Shuda just done a light recovery session and gone hard next workout day. All good. I'm still working this out after being away with lifts being out of sync.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 07:47:20 am by maxent »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2671 on: April 01, 2016, 08:19:43 am »
+2
sorry acole, here my reply:

I pretty much got in the best of my life 10 days ago. PR my squat ratio (1.8xbw), 2.5xbw hip thrusts, 8x180kg RDLs, low bodyfat etc, dieted down to a lean/strongish 74kg.  If i was only concerned wih jumping/dunking (ala LBSS) i would have taken a few days rest and filmed some dunks then but i didn't have that luxury. Instead  i had to prepare for and play a gruelling basketball competition and that messed me up athletically .. i prob did too much going into last week end then ended up eating my way to recovery, which didn't really do my bodycomp any favours. If i can get back to where i was 10 days ago bodycomp wise but with better lifts i'll be in even better shape and will be able to properly peak my athleticism which would mean taking some rest and raising calories to maintenance as opposed to a chronic caloric deficit.  May never get there though, it's too far from where i am at right now. I dont really wanna look any further back than 2016 though. Im more athletic now than i ever have been before which is remarkable considering im 32 and not getting any younger.. heh.

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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2672 on: April 01, 2016, 11:14:21 pm »
+1
Btw acole: I always envy how easily you can work up to decent squat tonnage after a lay-off and you have perfect form, while it would take me the months just to add a few kilo to mine and still be way lighter than say 140kg which is what i'd consider the mimimum for anyone use uses the lift with very average form. I guess you're just gifted when it comes to the lift! It's awesome. I didn't know what htat was like until i started doing hip thrusts and worked up to decently heavy weights in a couple of weeks of doing them once weekly! If squats came as easily to me, i'd have a much easier time but i guess you get more out of lifts that are harder than those that are easier? Is it a strengths & weaknesses thing?
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2673 on: April 01, 2016, 11:35:02 pm »
+1


BW: 77.85kg / 171.63lb

These first ~6lb came off pretty quickly which is a relief. I'm guessing some of the weight i put on is muscle and most is fat?  Hopefully there is a decent amount of new muscle. I'm considering taking todday's advice of stopping somewhere in between where i am and where i was (171.5 and 163) and just getting strong for a while. Really tempting. But i know it's not the best idea because what will invariably happen is i'll start gaining weigth (and strength) and end up a chubby, stronger 180lb or something and then lose those gains when i cut back down to lower bodyfat Better to just do the cutting first and get it out of the way, i should think and maintain my bodyfat while gaining weight/strength later down the line.
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AGC

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2674 on: April 02, 2016, 12:02:36 am »
+7
sorry acole, here my reply:

I pretty much got in the best of my life 10 days ago. PR my squat ratio (1.8xbw), 2.5xbw hip thrusts, 8x180kg RDLs, low bodyfat etc, dieted down to a lean/strongish 74kg.  If i was only concerned wih jumping/dunking (ala LBSS) i would have taken a few days rest and filmed some dunks then but i didn't have that luxury. Instead  i had to prepare for and play a gruelling basketball competition and that messed me up athletically .. i prob did too much going into last week end then ended up eating my way to recovery, which didn't really do my bodycomp any favours. If i can get back to where i was 10 days ago bodycomp wise but with better lifts i'll be in even better shape and will be able to properly peak my athleticism which would mean taking some rest and raising calories to maintenance as opposed to a chronic caloric deficit.  May never get there though, it's too far from where i am at right now. I dont really wanna look any further back than 2016 though. Im more athletic now than i ever have been before which is remarkable considering im 32 and not getting any younger.. heh.

Sure, I mean, there's no denying those are good numbers. I think you hit the nail on the head though when you talk about having <20hrs or less over the 3 months leading up to the comp, and how that was affected by your body recomping and being in caloric deficit. That's just....unfeasible if you actually want to be happy with your performance on the court. Thus, the body recomp has to be achievable and wrapped up early in your 'season'. Then the focus is firstly on practice/match play, with strength being secondary. I don't think I'm saying anything revolutionary there. No one would really expect, with 1h practice/week, you could compete at a high level in a skill-based activity like bball. I think you're getting that drilled into you enough though.

Seriously, fuck age. 32-35 could be your peak years! The stuff you hear about pro athletes peaking around 26-28 athletically and skills-wise is completely irrelevant to guys like us. They have been playing and training 2x a day for 10+ years and have nothing else going on apart from sleep-eat-train-PEDs. Now, there are definitely some changes in physiology from the age of 21 to 41 (T0ddday will know much more about this than me). Your 21 yo self vs 30 yo self will probably have more potential if you started at the same time, but the difference is overrated and no one has a time machine to do a repeated measures experiment anyway. What do you think contributes to normal guys falling off from athletic endeavours around 30? Fast twitch muscles atrophying, ligaments and tendons turning to jelly....or the fact that they accumulate preventable injuries, start working more, eating like shit and having kids. I think it's the latter but that's just me. Check this out:



Look at the 40yo triathlete's legs vs the 70yo's legs. They look identical. Compare that to the 70yo fatass in the middle. Ridiculous. I know it's a different sport but there are plenty of other examples. Dr Squat set a squat world record and probably had a 40'' SVJ in his mid-40s! And so on. Forget about the age thing. Train hard, maintain your body, eat well etc.

Btw acole: I always envy how easily you can work up to decent squat tonnage after a lay-off and you have perfect form, while it would take me the months just to add a few kilo to mine and still be way lighter than say 140kg which is what i'd consider the mimimum for anyone use uses the lift with very average form. I guess you're just gifted when it comes to the lift! It's awesome. I didn't know what htat was like until i started doing hip thrusts and worked up to decently heavy weights in a couple of weeks of doing them once weekly! If squats came as easily to me, i'd have a much easier time but i guess you get more out of lifts that are harder than those that are easier? Is it a strengths & weaknesses thing?

Thanks! I appreciate it. Even though I haven't squatted heavy in awhile I've been maintaining a 'squat-ready' state by staying mobile at night. This is a really good squat mobility sequence I do with inner tubes wrapped around my knees:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbozu0DPcYI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbozu0DPcYI</a>

But apart from that I think it's more to do with my leverages than anything else and previous years of muscle memory. I would rather have longer legs so I was a bit taller, even if it meant sacrificing  leverage. Unfortunately Dr Naismith had to nail that damn peach basket at 10' just to spite 6 feet and under guys like me.

Hmm..again, your question is about getting 'more' out of a particular lift you're predisposed for as opposed to a bad lift. But what is this mysterious 'more' entity? Everything you do in the gym has to relate back in some way to your goals. If hip thrusting makes you more hip-dominant and that helps you stay low in the post and have a more explosive SVJ then that's great! But if it doesn't do much for you, you can get strong at it but it'll be a waste of time.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2675 on: April 02, 2016, 08:18:42 am »
+1
I forgot to mention some other PRs: finally put BW over my head (push press) and also did a weighted dunk with a 20kg vest; among others im prob forgetting again. But yeah i was in a good place. Hope to return there and even surpass it!

The fact that i played so actual basketball was prob the biggest stumbling block. You can only do so much off the court (not including dunking and shoot around around alone). Next year i need to make sure im good enough to approach an existing, half decent team and want them to want me and play with them.

That's where the hard work now comes in .. movement efficiency, conditioning, skill work .. all of that has to happen now without fail, building it up gradually and early, so that come next summer i'll already be in shape and involved in a competitive league somewhere prior to going into the tournament.

I need to work on my ball handling .. build confidence with having the ball whether im dribbling it, passing or shooting i need to believe in myself to make good decisions and execute them. If you second guess youself in games, you cant expect others to believe in you (and give you the ball when you want it for example). So much work to do! But im gonna make sure these coming 12 months are filled with great growth as a basketball player not just someone who lifts and dunks once a while, and not much else!

I even bought a nice camera that does 1080p recording expecting to record my lifetimes highlight mix vid in anticipation of peaking at the tournament.. unfortunately i filled that leadup week with lots of walking around in a weighted vest .. lol. im such a spazz. rest would have done much more than last minute training ;(

tbh hip thrusts are soo easy to progress.. and it's taking so little time to get up to decent weights .. that i have nothing to lose to experiment with them and see whether or not they have any payoff to my athleticism. Contrast that with squats where ive been trying to get 2.0xbw since 2012 and never come close .. and it's not clear what payoff THAT will have/or has had/ in pursuit of it. It's frustrating but im closer to it in 2016 than ever before. Finally broke 1.8, and im sure 1.9 and 2.0 are not far once i get off the caloric deficit. Squats are so demanding on recovery .. it's not really possible to do much more than maintain (if that) when cutting. Contrast that with RDLs and hipthrusts and im setting 20kg prs each time i try (i mean i was, prob slowing down a bit now lol).
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2676 on: April 03, 2016, 03:51:21 am »
+1
BS 6x110(LPR), 6x115(LPR), 6x112.5
RDL 12x100 (PR?)
BHT 8x187.5 (PR), 6x207.5(PR), 7x200(PR)
OHP 3x60, 5x4x60

BW: 172.1

Notes:
Ok squats were a fuck today. Warmups with 100kg felt stutpidly hard/heavy and i was pessimistic of squatting heavy. However, i forced myself to go through the motions with lighter weight for volume instead. Each set was an RPE 10 but i'm glad i worked thru the wall.

Then it was time for RDLs .. and my upper back / lats /traps noped out, could not budge 180kg+ outta of the rack LOL. So i guess it was not in the cards today .. jsut as well.. it was the 2nd time this week i was going to do RDLs.. need to space them out .. but the reason i tried to do them today is becuase i prefer to do RDLSs on the last workout of the week. Because of the tournament induced layoff i did RDLs on tuesday but from here on, will do them weekly on sundays.  I did a consolation set of 12 with 100kg which was light as fuck but i used hook grip and chalk all the same.

Hip thrusts twice in the same week were especially painful also .. 60kg warmups felt piercing on my hips. But i persevered and worked up to some PRs .. so that was cool too. From next week on, will be back to doign these weekly on sundays, to my relief.
Didn't go to the bball court in the end.. was not worth driving out and then paying $6.50 for about an hour of court of time. My camera battery was dead so that didn't help motivation.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 06:38:48 am by maxent »
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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2677 on: April 03, 2016, 08:34:25 pm »
+1
To be honest i have no plan on how to bench 140kg given i haven't repped over 100kg yet. But i'll have to make some significant changes to achieve it. I wont be using a close grip as ive always done, and i'll have to setup with a bigger arch and learn to use leg drive and all those tricks ppl use to bench more. But even with those changes it's still going to be a huge challenge. My hope is to fill out my upper body -- bigger chest, back, arms, triceps, shoulders, all of that will have to grow (which is what I want!). I want to become my version of Lebron .. that's how i envision playing next year's comp .. a lot more physical -- playing bigger and aggressive and now i've added your suggestion of movement efficiency to that -- i think i will be a much better basketball player all around.

I think you are seriously understating your movement efficiency shortcomings and foolishly attempting to increase your bench out of some misguided idea that adding more mass will somehow make you stronger.  I don't know the level of basketball in Aus. but in the states I work with nba guys, college guys, aspiring pros, etc.  and I can promise you that 95% of the basketball players who are under 200lbs do not bench anywhere NEAR 140kg but would still be much much much "stronger" than you in basketball.   Additionally, no player under 200lbs squats anywhere near 400lbs.   I don't think you realize the undertaking you are making with these goals that will fatigue you and waste your time.  There are a million things that you could do that would bring you a greater bang for your buck than the way you are structuring your training.   I realize you probably don't care what some american sprinter thinks about basketball but it does pain me to see you work so hard for so little because you don't have an understanding of sports training... If I'm annoying then carry on and I won't comment your journal again.   Just for the upper body it would be 100x better for you to master plyo pushups, heavy throws, even push press makes a little sense.   You have a long road to learning how to move but with your work ethic you can do it - however considering what you want even your work ethic won't overcome senseless training.  Not in the least.  You need to make movement efficiency goals the foundation of your training if you want to play basketball not an axillary.

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2678 on: April 03, 2016, 09:05:20 pm »
0
To be honest i have no plan on how to bench 140kg given i haven't repped over 100kg yet. But i'll have to make some significant changes to achieve it. I wont be using a close grip as ive always done, and i'll have to setup with a bigger arch and learn to use leg drive and all those tricks ppl use to bench more. But even with those changes it's still going to be a huge challenge. My hope is to fill out my upper body -- bigger chest, back, arms, triceps, shoulders, all of that will have to grow (which is what I want!). I want to become my version of Lebron .. that's how i envision playing next year's comp .. a lot more physical -- playing bigger and aggressive and now i've added your suggestion of movement efficiency to that -- i think i will be a much better basketball player all around.

I think you are seriously understating your movement efficiency shortcomings and foolishly attempting to increase your bench out of some misguided idea that adding more mass will somehow make you stronger.  I don't know the level of basketball in Aus. but in the states I work with nba guys, college guys, aspiring pros, etc.  and I can promise you that 95% of the basketball players who are under 200lbs do not bench anywhere NEAR 140kg but would still be much much much "stronger" than you in basketball.   Additionally, no player under 200lbs squats anywhere near 400lbs.   I don't think you realize the undertaking you are making with these goals that will fatigue you and waste your time.  There are a million things that you could do that would bring you a greater bang for your buck than the way you are structuring your training.   I realize you probably don't care what some american sprinter thinks about basketball but it does pain me to see you work so hard for so little because you don't have an understanding of sports training... If I'm annoying then carry on and I won't comment your journal again.   Just for the upper body it would be 100x better for you to master plyo pushups, heavy throws, even push press makes a little sense.   You have a long road to learning how to move but with your work ethic you can do it - however considering what you want even your work ethic won't overcome senseless training.  Not in the least.  You need to make movement efficiency goals the foundation of your training if you want to play basketball not an axillary.

T0dday, I think I know where Maxent is coming from in this one. I think the question needs to be, where does the average Joe (so to speak) make up for the lack of God given LeBron like talent? I think this is behind Maxent's thinking in that his biggest impact on the court will be as an "athletic beast" (feel free to tell me if I'm off the mark). I felt pretty much the same way my entire ball playing career.
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LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2679 on: April 03, 2016, 09:18:59 pm »
0
^^^yeah but the point is that the way maxent wants to go about becoming as much of a beast as he can is misguided.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2680 on: April 03, 2016, 11:07:51 pm »
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^^^yeah but the point is that the way maxent wants to go about becoming as much of a beast as he can is misguided.

That's what I was getting at. Almost everything I hear/read about becoming an athletic beast involves getting a huge squat and bench, etc. On the other hand we see NBA players almost exclusively doing single leg work, plyos, core, etc. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle but the question is where?
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2681 on: April 03, 2016, 11:08:39 pm »
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I don't know if it's the /level/ of basketball or the style? Australian basketball is very physical! Look at the aussie players in the NBA who are reknown for their physical play .. Bogut and Dellavedova regularly make the top 5 lists for dirtiest players in the league. Who else am i forgetting, oh yeah, add in Steve Adam's and the other kiwis in the league into that mix and prob some others im now forgetting are regularly picked out for being very physical. Tbh i hate this style of play but you can complain about it or you can beat it. And Australian sportsmanship is alot about winning hte mindgame. Steve Waugh was one of the better captains of the Australian cricket team and he was famed for winning the game through intimidating and sledging not just skill and play.
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2682 on: April 03, 2016, 11:27:47 pm »
0
To be honest i have no plan on how to bench 140kg given i haven't repped over 100kg yet. But i'll have to make some significant changes to achieve it. I wont be using a close grip as ive always done, and i'll have to setup with a bigger arch and learn to use leg drive and all those tricks ppl use to bench more. But even with those changes it's still going to be a huge challenge. My hope is to fill out my upper body -- bigger chest, back, arms, triceps, shoulders, all of that will have to grow (which is what I want!). I want to become my version of Lebron .. that's how i envision playing next year's comp .. a lot more physical -- playing bigger and aggressive and now i've added your suggestion of movement efficiency to that -- i think i will be a much better basketball player all around.

I think you are seriously understating your movement efficiency shortcomings and foolishly attempting to increase your bench out of some misguided idea that adding more mass will somehow make you stronger.  I don't know the level of basketball in Aus. but in the states I work with nba guys, college guys, aspiring pros, etc.  and I can promise you that 95% of the basketball players who are under 200lbs do not bench anywhere NEAR 140kg but would still be much much much "stronger" than you in basketball.   Additionally, no player under 200lbs squats anywhere near 400lbs.   I don't think you realize the undertaking you are making with these goals that will fatigue you and waste your time.  There are a million things that you could do that would bring you a greater bang for your buck than the way you are structuring your training.   I realize you probably don't care what some american sprinter thinks about basketball but it does pain me to see you work so hard for so little because you don't have an understanding of sports training... If I'm annoying then carry on and I won't comment your journal again.   Just for the upper body it would be 100x better for you to master plyo pushups, heavy throws, even push press makes a little sense.   You have a long road to learning how to move but with your work ethic you can do it - however considering what you want even your work ethic won't overcome senseless training.  Not in the least.  You need to make movement efficiency goals the foundation of your training if you want to play basketball not an axillary.

Can I please ask some questions first? I think i understand what movement efficiency is, in spirit, but what exactly are we talking about when we say movement efficiency? When i watch video of myself on the basketball court I see someone who takes a long time to complete movements .. who appears to be moving in slow motion without the tell-tale "quick feet" of a (basketball) athlete. Is this the same thing?

Plyo pushups and medball throws . prob wont help me .. i know because ive tried the throws and it honestly was the biggest waste of time, i cant name a single thing i felt i got from them except bothering my back. if we're talking about wasting time that's def one of them. The best use ive come for the medballs ive collected, so far, is making the goal of eventually dunking one off a drop step drill for next year's comp lol.

I was told push presses would build my athleticism for bgasketbll but i had a bodyweight push press (not for reps mind you) and honestly i cant say that helped me either. So i'm really not sure about all of these things anymore. All i know is muscle is real and everything else is just conjecture. Look the part and at least you can win the mind game. A 6'3 dude with a big bench and squat who can also play a bit will go further in instilling confidence in his teammates and fear in his opponents. Am i wrong? Maybe, but it's not like im denying i'm an athletic nobody in dire need of movement efficiency.. just dont think there is as much i can do about THAT as i can about working hard on my lifts and eating to grow as an athlete .. if not in appearance but in strength and power and all of that. I do know it will help my play but even if much of that is how i feel mentally that's still a win!

I would love for this so called movement efficiency .. i dont see a way to it .. it seems like the holy grail .. just an end .. descrbing what im missing instead of a means to achieve it
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2683 on: April 04, 2016, 12:07:37 am »
0
Just to make it clear im not glossing over my severe lack of movement efficiency, here are teh glaring shortcomings in my athleticism as I see them (on the court):

- Moving from point A to B involves a very slow process of initiating the movement (high/long/slow reaction time), slow motion of the feet in making the movement(few longer, slower strides instead of several small quicker ones??), weird posture (round back or upright but not the low, athletic flat back stance in textbooks) and the whole thing looks very much in slow mo, like ive got cemented feet, am mired in quicksand and so on

- When it comes to jumping etc, i can move efficiently only in the penultimate stages of the movement but before then everything is slow motion

- positioning for rebounding, defence, lobs/dunks/cuts etc is non existent.. i dont move "early" enough .. im caught watching the ball or the action, reacting (which is invariably already too late to react!) to action instead of anticipating and creating action, moving earlier, either before or during the action

Is there anything i need to add to this list? please let me know!

And if that's the entire list .. then how do i fix or improve these problems. Before todday came ppl here were doing 10m sprints and stuff .. but we've gone the other direction since and done longer springs. tbh, i probably enjoyed doing those 20m sprints and miss them.. i wonder if they were better than half heartedly doing longer sprints which id ont really believe to be helping me. im pretty good on a fast break, i feel i can chase down anyone for a block.. and i can count the number of shots ive changed in fbs, even collecting transition rebounds .. however that's not wher ei need to improve.. it's the shorter distances, going from A to B where they're about 1-5m apart not the entire length of the court. Why shouldnt i be doing <5m sprints? if that's where i need the most improvement.. lol.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 12:22:06 am by maxent »
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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2684 on: April 04, 2016, 04:14:17 am »
+1

T0dday, I think I know where Maxent is coming from in this one. I think the question needs to be, where does the average Joe (so to speak) make up for the lack of God given LeBron like talent? I think this is behind Maxent's thinking in that his biggest impact on the court will be as an "athletic beast" (feel free to tell me if I'm off the mark). I felt pretty much the same way my entire ball playing career.

Well, LBSS already made the point for me but I'll fill you in here.   I totally disagree with this.  As far as the argument that "athletic beast" is the best way for him to be as good as possible at basketball...  I mean, he is a rail-thin 6'3 guy.  If he wants to perform as good as possible at next years tournament then he should hire a shooting coach and become a dead-eye shooter.  That's the biggest bang for your buck in basketball for all but the elite.  He shouldn't be complaining about how he couldn't dunk in games but instead should be complaining about only going 5-13 from 3pt land.   His "athletic beast" goal is certainly a terrible goal for being as good a basketball player as possible unless there is something I don't know about Aus bball.   HOWEVER...  I don't care.   I'm not a basketball trainer.  It's his prerogative how he wants to improve.   I can't really judge him because I have played in leagues and honestly if I can't catch alley oops it's not fun for me either even if I am not as helpful to my team.   I always feel a little bad playing in a league and not practicing actual basketball enough when I go 2-8 from the line in the fourth quarter...   BUT, it's for fun and if he want's to make his impact as an athletic beast I won't criticize him for not maximizing his bang for his back as a basketball player and instead trying to get better in the way that's fun for him...

That said...  Yeah I don't think he knows how to go about being an athletic beast.