Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 1467157 times)

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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2655 on: March 30, 2016, 11:46:30 am »
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BW: 80.5kg/177.5lb
TDEE: 2950 kcal
Activity: 14.2k steps

Nailed day 1 well. As long as I stay under 2000kcal/day i shud be done in 8 weeks..

Game was good. We lost but it was the top team and ours was/is the bottom one, so all things considered, it was ok. I had a good practice session after the game because there was a free court. Put up a bunch of jumpers.  Worked on my post moves. Dunked. Shot free throws.

Oh man wearing lowtops (kobe mentality I) is such a difference. Shot feels better and i can jump really well too. According to reviews this shoe takes some time to break in but i was happy with them new. These shoes are so much better than my last couple of pairs..all hightops. this will improve my game. Now im thinking i shud invest in a pair of highend low bball shoes (eg kobe XI elite) .. just to see if there is an even dramatic difference .. but maybe later down the line.

Need to add some more dunks to my armoury. im happy with how easily im getting up and how powerfully im throwing down.. esp at my current higher bodyweight.. which is countintuitive. I guess im not super reactive so for me this is about how strong i am and being a bit heavier helps if it means im stronger? When ive completed the transition into my lebron self, i'll prob find this to be even more true. More muscle + more strength + low bodyfat  +heavy bw == unstoppable beast??
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 12:13:39 pm by maxent »
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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2656 on: March 30, 2016, 03:31:02 pm »
+1
Your dedication is 10/10 but your planning of training and movement is 1/10.

Look at your goals...  You plan to hang around 160 for 4 months and then in 6 months get to 200lbs...  40 pounds of muscle in 6 months???  Are you kidding?

I get so many people asking similar questions as you - eg They are timid, weak, slow and soft and want to no longer be.   The truth is even if you get a 45 inch vertical and a 2.5 bw squat you will still be slow and soft on the basketball court because you lack movement efficiency.  Settle in a comfortable weight for you right now, you should feel better about this because of your recent experience jumping at a higher bodyweight...  It's probably around 175lbs and then make and conquer your movement efficiency goals and you will be a good athlete.   Your going to have to get faster and learn how to be an athlete and some of this unfortunately requires improvement in measures that don't come in the weight room or with a tape measure... 

Dreyth

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2657 on: March 30, 2016, 03:48:22 pm »
+1

Next year I want to do the other direction

So first things first, get lean as fuck

what exactly are you changing, then?

lmao
I'm LAKERS from The Vertical Summit

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2658 on: March 30, 2016, 08:54:35 pm »
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I get so many people asking similar questions as you - eg They are timid, weak, slow and soft and want to no longer be.   The truth is even if you get a 45 inch vertical and a 2.5 bw squat you will still be slow and soft on the basketball court because you lack movement efficiency.  Settle in a comfortable weight for you right now, you should feel better about this because of your recent experience jumping at a higher bodyweight...  It's probably around 175lbs and then make and conquer your movement efficiency goals and you will be a good athlete.   Your going to have to get faster and learn how to be an athlete and some of this unfortunately requires improvement in measures that don't come in the weight room or with a tape measure...

Hmm! Lacking movement efficiency makes a lot of sense. Agree that even getting a big squat and vertical wont help without it. What would you suggest to acquire it?
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2659 on: March 30, 2016, 08:57:16 pm »
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Quote
Your dedication is 10/10 but your planning of training and movement is 1/10.

Look at your goals...  You plan to hang around 160 for 4 months and then in 6 months get to 200lbs...  40 pounds of muscle in 6 months???  Are you kidding?

I dont know if it's unrealistic but i expect i can gain a couple of kilos of lean mass just by eating more food and carbs. Otherwise i'll aim for 1-1.5kg/month .. so 6-9kg in 6 months? It wont be all muscle even if i try to do it right but i dont mind dieting off a couple of kilos in the end .. though hopefully i wont have to .. haha.
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AGC

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2660 on: March 31, 2016, 12:27:08 am »
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Quote
Your dedication is 10/10 but your planning of training and movement is 1/10.

Look at your goals...  You plan to hang around 160 for 4 months and then in 6 months get to 200lbs...  40 pounds of muscle in 6 months???  Are you kidding?

I dont know if it's unrealistic but i expect i can gain a couple of kilos of lean mass just by eating more food and carbs. Otherwise i'll aim for 1-1.5kg/month .. so 6-9kg in 6 months? It wont be all muscle even if i try to do it right but i dont mind dieting off a couple of kilos in the end .. though hopefully i wont have to .. haha.

Can you demonstrate how the body recomposition aspect of your training over the last few years has helped you further your athleticism, as opposed to what seems to be the majority consensus that your should just train consistently at a relatively stable and lean BW? Provide results to back up any claim. I'm not saying it hasn't, I just haven't been following the fine details to the same degree as you and I think it would help the discussion to fully clarify what you think about it.

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2661 on: March 31, 2016, 03:04:22 am »
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Quote
Your dedication is 10/10 but your planning of training and movement is 1/10.

Look at your goals...  You plan to hang around 160 for 4 months and then in 6 months get to 200lbs...  40 pounds of muscle in 6 months???  Are you kidding?

I dont know if it's unrealistic but i expect i can gain a couple of kilos of lean mass just by eating more food and carbs. Otherwise i'll aim for 1-1.5kg/month .. so 6-9kg in 6 months? It wont be all muscle even if i try to do it right but i dont mind dieting off a couple of kilos in the end .. though hopefully i wont have to .. haha.

You can get back some water and fst by eating a bit more... but why would your body build muscle?  But why are you focused on gaining weight/mass?  Your not a bodybuilder...  make your strength goals and achieve them.  You will probably gain some weight but no reason to attempt to.  Set your limit (say 200lbs) and make the goal to get as strong as you feel necessary while staying sub 205.  If you get to 204 or 185 it doesnt matter...

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2662 on: March 31, 2016, 03:06:10 am »
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I get so many people asking similar questions as you - eg They are timid, weak, slow and soft and want to no longer be.   The truth is even if you get a 45 inch vertical and a 2.5 bw squat you will still be slow and soft on the basketball court because you lack movement efficiency.  Settle in a comfortable weight for you right now, you should feel better about this because of your recent experience jumping at a higher bodyweight...  It's probably around 175lbs and then make and conquer your movement efficiency goals and you will be a good athlete.   Your going to have to get faster and learn how to be an athlete and some of this unfortunately requires improvement in measures that don't come in the weight room or with a tape measure...

Hmm! Lacking movement efficiency makes a lot of sense. Agree that even getting a big squat and vertical wont help without it. What would you suggest to acquire it?

This is where you need coaching....  it would require evaluating you ro see your faulty movement patterns and correct them....  in the meantime you could master bound variations and drop your 60m sprint.  Guys who run the 60m faster rsrely have poor movement efficiency

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2663 on: March 31, 2016, 09:42:44 am »
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Your dedication is 10/10 but your planning of training and movement is 1/10.

Look at your goals...  You plan to hang around 160 for 4 months and then in 6 months get to 200lbs...  40 pounds of muscle in 6 months???  Are you kidding?

I dont know if it's unrealistic but i expect i can gain a couple of kilos of lean mass just by eating more food and carbs. Otherwise i'll aim for 1-1.5kg/month .. so 6-9kg in 6 months? It wont be all muscle even if i try to do it right but i dont mind dieting off a couple of kilos in the end .. though hopefully i wont have to .. haha.

You can get back some water and fst by eating a bit more... but why would your body build muscle?  But why are you focused on gaining weight/mass?  Your not a bodybuilder...  make your strength goals and achieve them.  You will probably gain some weight but no reason to attempt to.  Set your limit (say 200lbs) and make the goal to get as strong as you feel necessary while staying sub 205.  If you get to 204 or 185 it doesnt matter...

More weight helps because you can body up ppl better in the post heavier than light. More weight helps finishing inside through contact. At the moment i'm too easy to bump off balance on layups, because im too light but add on another 10kg and the extra momentum + strength helps with finishing close to the rim. Rebounding, defence, boxing out, all of that. I wanna contribute by 'playing big' by first being bigger and then realising it on the court. I do wanna gain mostly lean mass. Water, food in gut, glycogen == easy lean mass gains. About 5kg of those will be muscle: solid quality contractile tissue. Def do-able in the timeframe of 12 months by training hard and eating clean.  I need more mass all over, legs, glutes, back, upper back, chest, arms, etc. So i have a lot of room to fill. My bench needs to go up to 140kg to get to get decent upper body development i should think. 180kg backsquat should round off my lower body development.
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2664 on: March 31, 2016, 09:55:51 am »
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This is where you need coaching....  it would require evaluating you ro see your faulty movement patterns and correct them....  in the meantime you could master bound variations and drop your 60m sprint.  Guys who run the 60m faster rsrely have poor movement efficiency

I can get started on those now and keep working on them for the next 12 months. Which variations do you think would benefit me? 60m sprints idk about, how would i even measure improvements .. i imagine any improvements I measure will be mired by measurement errors? just doing them and trusting im getting better over time?
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LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2665 on: March 31, 2016, 10:28:16 am »
+1
how would you measure improvements on a 60m? uh, with a stopwatch?
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2666 on: March 31, 2016, 01:06:34 pm »
+2

More weight helps because you can body up ppl better in the post heavier than light. More weight helps finishing inside through contact. At the moment i'm too easy to bump off balance on layups, because im too light but add on another 10kg and the extra momentum + strength helps with finishing close to the rim. Rebounding, defence, boxing out, all of that. I wanna contribute by 'playing big' by first being bigger and then realising it on the court. I do wanna gain mostly lean mass. Water, food in gut, glycogen == easy lean mass gains. About 5kg of those will be muscle: solid quality contractile tissue. Def do-able in the timeframe of 12 months by training hard and eating clean.  I need more mass all over, legs, glutes, back, upper back, chest, arms, etc. So i have a lot of room to fill. My bench needs to go up to 140kg to get to get decent upper body development i should think. 180kg backsquat should round off my lower body development.

Lol, sometimes your commitment to believing what you want regardless of whether it's true is astounding...  To be fair that is somewhat coupled with dedication ie very dedicated people will naturally be a little more dogmatic in their approach even when they should revise their thinking...  However, you can still be pretty damn dedicated and take advice of trainers who know a bit more than you about this.   

Everything you said in the above paragraph is about 95% false.  What I mean by this is that I'm not disputing that their are differences in heavier vs lighter problems BUT that your ineffectiveness (eg can't body up in the post, can't finish, can't keep balance on layups, rebounds) are not going to be solved with gaining weight and could easily be solved without gaining weight.  I have trained enough pro-athletes to know that value of leverage, movement efficiency, and core strength.  Not sure if your familiar with American Football but there is a player than spends his offseason here by the name of Richard Sherman who is very similar to you in build - he is 6'3 186 (listed heavier sometimes but I've seen him weigh in in the offseason so if anything he is lighter in-season). He is one of the toughest defensive backs in the NFL (and a solid tackler) which is a far more physical sport than basketball.  I've actually played basketball with him and I can promise you he isn't having trouble getting knocked off balance, fighting contact, doing in-game dunks, or getting rebounds due to his lack of body-weight.  Bodyweight is really only important in pretty extreme collisions that are all but avoided in basketball.  Right now your light and extremely weak, but don't confuse the two.  I'm not even arguing that you won't get heavier as you get stronger and learn how to move.  I'm just arguing that any training designed to help you gain X pounds for basketball performance is archaic is detrimental.  You need to weigh enough to have enough muscle and core strength to "play strong".   If that's 175lbs for you consider yourself blessed.   I start feeling like I am a sleep deprived depressed heroin-addict and my strength gets completely sapped if I get under 200lbs too quickly.  If I could feel non-depleted and weak at 180 I would weigh that much and enjoy my ridiculous strength to weight ratios...   

If all that is too much to read:  Your an athlete.  Your goals must be performance and performance only.  Ideally somewhat specific performance.  There are skinny and light strong beasts (Richard Sherman) and their are heavy strong beasts.   As you become a beast you will end up somewhere on the spectrum for body mass (probably toward the lighter side for you).   Don't try to shortcut the process by focusing on goals that involve weight gain.  In fact, assuming you are finally lean at 165lbs you really shouldn't have goals again that involve gaining or cutting again, 95% of an athletes time should be spent on improving...  Get in enough system work and eat a good enough diet for performance and your weight will take care of it by itself.  I get that you let yourself go and had to go through a painful cut...  Now you have done that and it shouldn't be an issue again. 

Also... Serious about that bench?  140kg is basically 315lbs.   I read your log and the most I saw was 95kgx2 or less than 225.  You really think your going to go from benching less than 2 plates to benching 3 plates in a year whilst spending half the time cutting???  Are you serious?  Do you even think pressing weight up while laying down will help you in basketball.  It won't.  Make movement efficiency goals and hit them!


T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2667 on: March 31, 2016, 01:08:08 pm »
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how would you measure improvements on a 60m? uh, with a stopwatch?

To be fair... We don't want him to fall into the Avishek trap of looking at his iphone while running "10m" sprints in world record times... 

Timing isn't trivial but if you have a smartphone and a tripod I can show you how OR if you have a friend you can just use a watch or smartphone. Self timing on less than a 150m is pretty hard with a watch.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2668 on: March 31, 2016, 11:03:28 pm »
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BW: 78.3kg / 172.62lb

Day 3 and i'm on track to get back in shape. I prob have more muscle this time around though. Going to keep protein above 200g/day and be ok with it going as high as 250g/day.  No reason I can't recomp on my way down to 75kg/165lb.

Looking forward to training today, get to try some movement efficiency work.
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2669 on: April 01, 2016, 12:19:34 am »
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This summer I played minimal basketball going into the comp. Even less than 20 hours total over 3 months.  It wasn't ideal and my movement efficiency was quite low. I get that no matter how lean, fit and strong I am, that it cannot make up for a severe lack of movement efficiency. Even when I was playing bball regularly I was still lacking movement efficiency - I guess I didn't really work on it specifically except incidentally just by playing and since my style of play isn't efficient, I never really developed it from there.

Eating clean and training hard goes a long way. And if i start at 75kg/165lb that gives me plenty of room to grow, a decent strength & muscle base to build upon and plenty of time to achieve some lofty weightroom goals (140kg and 180kg respectively) while remaining relatively lean. There is no way I can squat over 150kg or bench over 100kg while weighing that light so it goes without saying i'll be gaining weight to achieve those goals. That's the point! I want to gain some muscle lol. About 5kg of it - and it will be functional muscle because i'll be using it to perform better.

I admit a bench goal doesn't help me play better basketball, only indirectly in that achieving it, i'll have a more muscular upper body and that will help my confidence and play in the post. Same with the squat goal, it's just a way of making sure i have decent power to weight ratio & muscle mass to fat mass ratio, no use weighing 200 if i can't squat 400 .. it's just a lot of dead weight. However apart from that it doesn't help my sport - just indirectly by giving me more muscle to produce force.

To be honest i have no plan on how to bench 140kg given i haven't repped over 100kg yet. But i'll have to make some significant changes to achieve it. I wont be using a close grip as ive always done, and i'll have to setup with a bigger arch and learn to use leg drive and all those tricks ppl use to bench more. But even with those changes it's still going to be a huge challenge. My hope is to fill out my upper body -- bigger chest, back, arms, triceps, shoulders, all of that will have to grow (which is what I want!). I want to become my version of Lebron .. that's how i envision playing next year's comp .. a lot more physical -- playing bigger and aggressive and now i've added your suggestion of movement efficiency to that -- i think i will be a much better basketball player all around. I think i'm giving up on the goal of windmills and so on -- that's never going to happen .. i'm ok with just doing effortless powerful dunks around the rim if it means i actually have a chance of doing them in-game than landing windmills at some super featherweight bw while being unable to do much on the court once there are 9 other players on the court :/

I'm not going to be cutting for 12 months!! I am 172.5 today .. hopefully i can get close enough to 165 by end of april and then it's just about maintaining bodweight and getting some basic milestones out of the way (2xbw squat being the main one) before eating more food to train towards 180kg BS and 140kg BP. That's actually going to be exciting -- being able to eat enough food to actually grow some muscle and get decently strong ..without getting fat. That will be new for me.
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