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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2550 on: February 19, 2016, 07:59:00 am »
0
Quote from: Merrick on February 19, 2016, 07:12:14 am
Why don't you just post a picture?

Also T0ddday,

I don't get what you said.  You are talking about a 2 legged vert and quad dominance can be just fine for 2 legged jumps. I mean there are tons of quad dominant insane 2 legged jumpers.  The 2 legged jump is just fine being done quad dominantly unlike the 1 legged jump or sprint

No.  I disagree.  Anyone who gets really high off 2 feet (45+) is using speed and hip tendons.  You dont store force in your quadriceps tendon to any appreciable degree.  A lot of people think they are quad dominant, and some may use more quads than others but your not having your hips turned off and jumping high. 

Additionally, your not gonna be 165 at 6'4" and jump high without your hips.  Dieting down to insane lightness while you dont know how to use your hips does not make sense.  T
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Merrick

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2551 on: February 19, 2016, 02:35:45 pm »
+5
Yeah forgot you were special man.  Just keep going to 155lbs at 6'4" lol
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2552 on: February 19, 2016, 02:59:07 pm »
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Quote from: Merrick on February 19, 2016, 02:35:45 pm
Yeah forgot you were special man.  Just keep going to 155lbs at 6'4" lol

There's 2 parts to this but only a few ppl on this forum would be able to relate to this. Those who have allowed their bodyweight to drift wayy past their setpoint (from injury induced layoffs or whatever). So i dont think i was born to have this storage pattern. There is a good quote on this if i can paraphrase it fairly, "As men get fat they take on female storage patterns" and vice versa, "as women get fat they take on male storage patterns". So as a woman gets obese she'll start to grow a protuding gut and pile on the lower back fat when women normally wouldn't store fat there. Similarly when a man gets obese he'll start to store fat in his hips/butt/thighs/chest when normally he wouldn't. This does bad things for a man hormonally too, reduces testosterone production and increases oestrogen production.

The point is if a male has "let himself go" at some point, that fat is there and it must be dieted off or whatever. And then maybe if you do it right, ie minimise saturated fat intake and overall fat intake for that matter and keep calories in check not gaining weight too quickly he will be able to gain weight in a more "normal" manner for a male, which is good.

The thing todday doesn't get and it's easy to understand if you do make a quick table like i did on this thread:


The difference between the guy who is 10% at 90kg and 10% at 70kg is ONLY 2kg of adipose. SO it's only wishful thinking to say you should "just gain some muscle" - of course you should gain muscle! But if you already more than say 2-5kg of extra adipose, you would have to gain wild amounts of muscle to nevertheless improve your bodyfat% appreciably. This is all very depressing of course but the numbers are undeniable...
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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2553 on: February 19, 2016, 04:08:07 pm »
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^^^ I think I have you pretty beat on the letting your bodyweight drift past its setpoint.  In fact im pretty sure im forum wide champion.
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Leonel

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2554 on: February 19, 2016, 10:48:20 pm »
+2
I really don't get it why you are so stubborn when it comes to achieving a certain weight. Your mental occupation with dieting and achieving "X" bodyweight or bodyfat level is pathological. I mean as T0ddday said, I saw you going through several phases where you made some decent strength gains only to kinda lose most of it during your "cuts/recomps/whatever" It's like you're complaining about a headache while repeatedly banging your head against a wall. I believe you wont get anywhere with your athletic/visual pursuit like this. And please never call yourself obese again at 168lbs and 6'4 I mean what would I be then at 6' and 210lbs? I'm really not trying to go on your nerves here or call you out... just trying to help. Stop with that dieting down to 75kg in the next 12 days then recomp for 2 weeks and go on a slow bulk up to 80kg (just an example). I mean that's just madness... eat clean, eat enough, make sure you get in all your macros and kind of let your body "decide" where it feels comfortable weight wise long term... it might be 170lbs but it might also be 185+ lbs I don't know. But I really think the whole concept of bulking/dieting is misplaced when it comes to athletic training, when you are not really too heavy/fat to be athletic, move in an efficient way. (read: you're not obese!!!) This is not bodybuilding! ;)

Pc!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 10:55:03 pm by Leonel »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2555 on: February 20, 2016, 01:54:28 am »
-2
Quote from: T0ddday on February 19, 2016, 04:08:07 pm
^^^ I think I have you pretty beat on the letting your bodyweight drift past its setpoint.  In fact im pretty sure im forum wide champion.

True. You and mutumbo have gained the most weight in recent times. But i think you were both pretty lean in your teens and 20s. In comparison, I think i am still holding adipose from ages 14-23 -- those were the years i was pretty physically inactive & ate like crap because i didn't know any better ... sucks.. cause i cud have made amazing gains in those years if i had been more active. I really didn't start lifting til 25 and learned the wrong stuff to start with and let myself go in a big way (intentionally) topping out at 115kg / 250lb at my heaviest from "bulking up".''

2 years ago i did a pretty decent job at cutting to 163 .. however as soon as i came off that diet, i rebounded hard, eating so much junk in the space of 10 days. Lmao, i used to go to the shops and buy a box of brownie mix and make a batch and eat the entire thing in one sitting. i quickly found I had had bounced back to 175 and kept going up. My body just wasn't ready to maintain 163. I had got there too fast, via hardcore ~1000kcal/day dieting. This time around my plan is to maintain 165 for a while before attempting any future cutting .. and let my body become accustomed to new set points of bodyfat% along the way. The mistake i made previously was i had never given myself that chance to make intermediate setpoints .. and when i reached my goal weight, i was not prepared to maintain it. Maintaining lower bodyfat% is going to be my biggest challenge to come .. not so much getting there but staying there.
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2556 on: February 20, 2016, 02:22:02 am »
-3
Quote from: Leonel on February 19, 2016, 10:48:20 pm
I really don't get it why you are so stubborn when it comes to achieving a certain weight. Your mental occupation with dieting and achieving "X" bodyweight or bodyfat level is pathological. I mean as T0ddday said, I saw you going through several phases where you made some decent strength gains only to kinda lose most of it during your "cuts/recomps/whatever" It's like you're complaining about a headache while repeatedly banging your head against a wall. 

Goals like bw are measurable and concrete but ones like actual bodyfat% values are not. Unfortunately this means i'm coupling my bodyfat% milestones to bodyweight milestones like 80kg->77.5kg ->75kg ->72.5kg ->70kg etc or in pounds 185->180->175->170->165->160->155->150. Thats how I arrived at 165 .. there is nothing to say it will correspond to any meaningful bodyfat% -- it's useful only in relative terms that losing 1kg ~ 1%bf and so 5kg ~5%bf. In other words bodyfat changes go like 20->17.5->15->12.5->10->7.5 and so on. It's a rough approximation of meaningful milestones of relative bodyfat% CHANGE not actual bodyfat percentage values that are meaningful to us (15% vs 10% for example). 

I know from past experience I can afford to get down to 72kg from my current 77kg and still not be "ripped" -- which tells me i can afford to lose 5kg yet. But working backwards that means i have a surplus 5kg of adipose above and beyond my essential athletic bodyfat of ~7kg(10% of 70kg). If i do a bulk that +5kg will only increase .. and it's easy to imagine it going to +7kg. That's 7kg on top of the essential athletic bodyfat amount of 7kg. Too much fat. Good luck bulking, gains will be mostly fatty bulking from such a high bodyfat percentage.

I've talked about this in the past but there is a  lot of value in getting down to ones bare "essential bodyfat" - not because that is desirable from an athletic or aesthetic viewpoint long term.. it's just a good starting point to start training and eating properly. Maintain it for a while (say at least a few weeks or months) then start gaining weight SLOWLY after getting as strong as possible at that bodyweight/bodyfat%.  If i take it real slow from there and gain weight in a decent fashion (say at most gaining 0.5-1.5kg (1-3.5lb) bodyweight per month) while eating clean (oats + low saturated fat etc) and small surpluses (<+200-500kcal a day) i'll gain mostly muscle and good (male) bodyfat distribution. Obviously gaining some bodyfat as well which is okay cause bodyfat% will go up proportionally to bodyweight and you can more or less maintain your target bodyfat (say 10-12%). But if bodyfat% goes too high, cut for a few weeks and then repeat. Basically the most common advice from the bodybuilding community which has long figured this stuff out..
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Leonel

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2557 on: February 20, 2016, 05:36:04 am »
+2
It seems like you didn't even read my post. wtf is that essential athletic bf you're talking about you make up all these "fancy words" but it doesn't really make any sense at all! haha

I know from past experience I can afford to get down to 72kg from my current 77kg and still not be "ripped" -- which tells me i can afford to lose 5kg yet. But working backwards that means i have a surplus 5kg of adipose above and beyond my essential athletic bodyfat of ~7kg(10% of 70kg). If i do a bulk that +5kg will only increase .. and it's easy to imagine it going to +7kg. That's 7kg on top of the essential athletic bodyfat amount of 7kg. Too much fat. Good luck bulking, gains will be mostly fatty bulking from such a high bodyfat percentage.

I mean what's that shit you're trying to get at here...?! Don' t overcomplicate things so much!! I mean yeah weight loss is a measurable variable but at these small increments (0.5kg) the weight difference might probably just be because of daily fluctuation. I mean it's not that fucking hard. Lift weights while focusing on a good diet, getting enough protein and voila your body composition will change... I mean I know that I have to get rid of some bodyfat but I just focus on keeping up the intensity and eating more clean and eventhough I only lost a couple of lbs so far the mirror shows me that I definitely lost some fat... sorry if all this sounded a bit harsh but it seems like you are putting waaay too much thinking into this weight loss, body composition process and got obsessed with it which takes away energy you would better spend doing what is most important, TRAINING!! :D
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2558 on: February 20, 2016, 06:16:26 am »
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Btw acole thanks for the TENS/EMS recommendation. I used one for the first time last night and couldn't believe how amazing it felt .. next day im good as new .. so this is a game changer. I owe you a lot  for putting me onto compression gear and now the TENS machine. I only wish i had read your post again because you suggested getting one with an AC charger, mine is just battery. But i'll prob get another one and see if i can get my health fund to cover the cost.

Also came across this book, The Lean Muscle Diet so far im digging it a lot, it puts maintenance first which is exactly what i'm after .. cause im good at dieting and cutting but need help in maintaining my gains once i get them. So very timely coming across it!

ANother thought i had recently .. low carb diets work a lot better for me in bodycomp change and fat loss. My next cut will def be a keto diet .. no doubt. I just hate the lack of sleep and having to piss all the time but whatever.
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2559 on: February 20, 2016, 06:22:08 am »
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Quote from: Leonel on February 20, 2016, 05:36:04 am
It seems like you didn't even read my post. wtf is that essential athletic bf you're talking about you make up all these "fancy words" but it doesn't really make any sense at all! haha

Essential atheltic bodyfat is around 7-10kg (15-22lb) for most males. It's basically 10% of 70kg-100kg.  I have a lot more than 7kg. I have something like 12-15kg which is too much. Hence i wanna reduce it to 7kg. Then i'll start gaining weight and muscle.
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Leonel

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2560 on: February 20, 2016, 11:12:41 am »
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 Yeah you're right it's best to get your bf levels pretty low especially when it comes to sprinting/jumping etc. But the way you call it it sounds like it is "essential" to have a certain bodyfat level (10%) to be athletic. if you are higher or even when you're lower then you just gonna suck bigtime or what?  I'm confused a bit but I'll gonna keep my mouth shut now... maybe I'm just too stupid to get your concepts...
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2561 on: February 20, 2016, 11:40:19 am »
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Essential fat and storage fat. As its name implies, essential fat is necessary for normal, healthy functioning. It is stored in small amounts in your bone marrow, organs, central nervous system and muscles. In men, essential fat is approximately 3% of body weight.

 Play on words to talk about an "essential athletic bodyfat" -- which might be defined as the amount of bodyfat you need for optimal athletic performance depending on the sport. I'd guess you can look at the best athletes in a given sport to see what bodyfat% they have and it's prob a close approximation to "essential athletic bodyfat"?. I'm talking about basketball so for me 10% bf makes sense, which amounts to 7-10kg for the average player weighing btw 70-100kg but for another sport it may be different. For the average guy who wants to be athletic (run/jump well) it's prob also ~10%. I wouldn't call 10% pretty low though. Low is 6-8%.

Anyway the reason im talking about essential athletic bodyfat isn't even to do with performance .. it's to do with the maximum bodyfat amount you should have before you start gaining weight (-> for muscle gain). If you start off at 15kg of bodyfat and gain weight your gains will be mostly fat. If you start with 7-10kg of bodyfat and gain weight your gains will be more muscle and less bodyfat. it's to do with insulin sensitivity and p-ratio. Telling me to "stop cutting" and "gain muscle" is stupid because i already have 10-15kg of bodyfat and my gains will be mostly bodyfat instead of mostly muscle. I'm not interested in gaining only weight and strength. I want mostly muscle and strength together.. dont need useless bodyweight gains which aren't lean. Doesn't help my goal to be a better athlete becoming stronger and fatter.

btw i wish everyone here dishing out advice and upvotes/downvotes would stop projecting. I'm not telling ANYONE else how they should structure their diets and training. I'm talking about myself. I wouldn't apply advice pertaining to myself indiscriminately to another individual who may have very different needs than myself. i'll only ask others to do the same when dishing it out others.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 12:20:37 pm by maxent »
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FP

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2562 on: February 20, 2016, 01:12:12 pm »
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Quote from: maxent on February 20, 2016, 11:40:19 am
If you start off at 15kg of bodyfat and gain weight your gains will be mostly fat. If you start with 7-10kg of bodyfat and gain weight your gains will be more muscle and less bodyfat. it's to do with insulin sensitivity and p-ratio. Telling me to "stop cutting" and "gain muscle" is stupid because i already have 10-15kg of bodyfat and my gains will be mostly bodyfat instead of mostly muscle. I'm not interested in gaining only weight and strength. I want mostly muscle and strength together.. dont need useless bodyweight gains which aren't lean.

Do you have a source for this? I've been staying kind of neutral, but I'm skeptical about this. If there is a significant muscle gaining benefit to being at 10% bf, I'm sure different weightlifting communities would be all over this and everyone would be trying to maintain 10% BF because it would be inefficient to have anything more.

Also, I know you are convinced you are well above 10% bf, but have you considered getting tested or at least buying an inexpensive caliper to test yourself? Obviously people are different, but when I was at 175lbs I am pretty sure that I was below 10% bf, just from visual comparison. It doesn't seem like our strength levels are that different.
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2563 on: February 20, 2016, 01:22:46 pm »
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2564 on: February 20, 2016, 01:43:14 pm »
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I actually have 2 pairs of calipers.. and ones a good quality one. Never use it though. It's not very useful. I can tell when im leaning out by skinfolds getting smaller, jiggle test and not to mention mirror test. Calipers would just show diminishing skinfold measurements in mm which don't really matter. Actually, the data might be useful to see where the fat is coming off .. but it would be too much effort to track regularly .. hmmmm. But if that's what you wanna use the calipers go ahead, it will be useful. What it's not so useful for is coming up with an accurate bodyfat percentage.

Anyway. Suppose you go to the effort and take 8 site skinfolds.. then you plug them into an equation and get back a magic bodyfat measurement.  That's your bodyfat percentage, right? Not quite. The equation is made from a model taken from a sample of a population .. it might be way off for a given individual, especially out of population the original sample was taken from. So for me since I know i have little in common with the average white man it wont be accurate, similar for someone of african descent or south asian descent. If someone did make a model for my race it might be more accurate for me but nevertheless it's just an estimate and doesn't have to be accurate for an individual but for most of the original population sampled. Btw this same thing applies for DEXA too which is why i dont put much stock in it either.
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