Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 1464974 times)

AGC · « **Reply #1860 on:** June 11, 2014, 06:34:28 am »

Quote from: entropy on June 11, 2014, 05:33:49 am

Todday you're right, it's internet wisdom for better or worse. Also if you take anabolics and don't lift, you still gain significant FFM and lose FM. Add weight training to it and you improve gains. It's not a stretch to say training specifically for hypertrophy maximises gains of mass when juicing, hence the BB style training popularised by users.

My argument in light of the above paragraph was just that if you're juicing then it doesn't really matter so much how you train because the effects of the supplements will take place regardless. It's not that you have to train differently when juicing, it's that you don't have to train the same as a natural. If you're natural though you need to train better/harder/whatever you want to call it/ to make gains.

Coges, im really really skeptical of what these guys say/claim regarding reactivity. I don't believe it. IF i was to quantify my belief in it, i'd say maybe they're 2-3% correct. Unless I see proof i'm not going to change my mind, there is a lot of bs info in training, including jump training and otherwise on the internet. My default stance is that it's bs unless i become convinced otherwise. I will be try it out myself at some point, but right now i dont want to waste my time experimenting with something i don't think will be effective. Later on, when i've exhausted gains from squats, i'll give other things a try. But i haven't done that yet. Not really. Until i get back to squatting near 180kg while weighing a lean 85kg, i don't have any reason to try other stuff which will probably do close to nothing. My bias is my bias, i don't make excuses for it, that's how i see it.

OK, so what you're saying from that is:

1. Reactivity can't be trained

2. Squat gains = athletic gains

3. Any other athletic training is only worth doing after achieving 2xBW squat while being lean.

Is that right? You really need to have a working definition of what 'athleticism' is in your opinion in that case, because I think we're all just getting confused. By the way, less than a year of consistent athletic training at nearly 30 might not be long enough to see significant gains. How were you measuring progress? Monthly broad jump, consecutive jumps, running vertical jump tests? Timed 100m runs? What I'm saying is, you can't just say "I didn't feel it made a difference" if you weren't objectively measuring things. Not saying you didn't, just don't remember you posting anything like that.

entropy · « **Reply #1861 on:** June 11, 2014, 06:42:32 am »

Reactivity can be trained. It just wont change much, maybe 2-5%, which is not nothing, but it's not as much i'll get out of squatting. That's all. Maybe a couple of percent diff to your athleticism. Proof is there are millions of slow/unathletic guys in professional sports who never change that regardless of all the plyos in the world. It's not going to change for me. But i do know if i figure out a way to get a beast squat at a low bodyweight i'll be able to jump higher. That's all. No i wont become athletic, i'll always be slow/clunky, im ok with that, its the card i was dealt. But i will be able to jump higher of a step or two - that's going to translate well to my game. Blocking shots, grabbing rebounds, scoring inside. Dunking inside (maybe).

AGC · « **Reply #1862 on:** June 11, 2014, 07:49:13 am »

Well IMO that's just a very negative view on your own state of affairs. You might just think it's being realistic but slow clunky people can become fast athletic people with smart training and commitment. I've seen it, others here have seen it, fuck, adarq himself was a slow-twitch long-distance guy before he started training for vert. There's plenty of examples and you haven't really given any convincing reason why you CAN'T be like that as well. Why not just change your journal name to 'chasing kingfish' then?

I'm sure you'll think I'm being naive and you seem pretty set in your opinion on this but there's no logical reason to hold self-limiting beliefs when it comes to athletic training. Every other aspect in life you need to be realistic, but not training. No one is going to laugh at you, you've literally got nothing to lose except realising what your actual potential is. Most people don't even scratch the surface.

Raptor · « **Reply #1863 on:** June 11, 2014, 07:56:51 am »

But how do we define "reactive ability"?

To me, reactive ability means the ability to:

1) Do quick consecutive jumps without too much muscle contribution (explosive muscle isometrics, tendon contributions);
2) Coordinate yourself at high speeds generating high amounts of power;
3) Generate good triple extension in a jump after a significant prestretch has occured;
4) Generate a ton of power quickly (same as 1) - quick voluntary power generation + accumulated involuntary power (tendon deformation + additional neural activation) = a high jump = a powerful movement = win);
5) Not collapse in high speed plants (quickly lock up, similar to 1)) / make use of your calves;

And there must be others but this is what came up in my head in 20 seconds.

If you can show me how squatting accomplishes 1), 2), 3), 4) and 5), then yeah, go for squatting only.

If not, but you want to focus on strength training now since it's winter anyway, then at least do a bunch of plyos/jumps before the strength work, and stop beating yourself to death with maximal failed attempts. That's all I'm saying.

Anyway, I've talked way too much already so... whatever you choose to do, good luck.

seifullaah73 · « **Reply #1864 on:** June 11, 2014, 10:59:13 am »

Quote from: entropy on June 11, 2014, 06:23:29 am

It may make a small difference (say 2-5%) but that's about it. That's not a good return of investment. I know i'll get more out of squats than any of that plyomumbojumpo. It's an icing to the cake, something you do when you've tapped out from squatting. IMHO.

Plyomatric exercise helps use the strength you gained from the gym I.e squats, which I think is they are getting in terms of reactive training plyometrics important unless you just want be able to squat large numbers for competition only, but if you have decent squat numbers you need to do plyometrics to use the strength from squat aswell as power lifts cleans matches or hip extension exercises, just my 2 cents

Kingfish · « **Reply #1865 on:** June 11, 2014, 11:10:18 am »

Quote from: acole14 on June 11, 2014, 07:49:13 am

Well IMO that's just a very negative view on your own state of affairs. You might just think it's being realistic but slow clunky people can become fast athletic people with smart training and commitment. I've seen it, others here have seen it, fuck, adarq himself was a slow-twitch long-distance guy before he started training for vert. There's plenty of examples and you haven't really given any convincing reason why you CAN'T be like that as well. Why not just change your journal name to 'chasing kingfish' then?

I'm sure you'll think I'm being naive and you seem pretty set in your opinion on this but there's no logical reason to hold self-limiting beliefs when it comes to athletic training. Every other aspect in life you need to be realistic, but not training. No one is going to laugh at you, you've literally got nothing to lose except realising what your actual potential is. Most people don't even scratch the surface.

i don't do RVJ but that doesn't mean im plyo deficient. i do so many volumes of low-mid intensity jump drills using jump ropes and hurdles. those + the actual SVJ drills.

i consecutive double leg jump 36" hurdles 8-12 in a row. those are my favorite aside from the 2-hand SVJ dunks.

even simple 1-min set of single leg jump rople drill (front to back, and side to side) will get you stiffer in just a couple of weeks of doing them consistently.

strong plyos eventually boost your squat too.

Raptor · « **Reply #1866 on:** June 11, 2014, 01:01:29 pm »

You do? So you never list them then?

entropy · « **Reply #1867 on:** June 12, 2014, 12:59:37 am »

I dont get it. When the chinese coach guy told me to do ankle jumps etc in 2013, LBSS & co said lol wut. And when I asked specifically for advice for improving my athleticism (Jan-April) i got absolutely nothing, even though I was willing to try out anything. But when i decide to get back to what I think I care about (squat goals), suddenly everyone piles up giving their 2c and tell me im going about things the wrong way. So excuse me if i'm a bit annoyed.

AGC · « **Reply #1868 on:** June 12, 2014, 01:23:52 am »

Quote from: Kingfish on June 11, 2014, 11:10:18 am

Quote from: acole14 on June 11, 2014, 07:49:13 am
Well IMO that's just a very negative view on your own state of affairs. You might just think it's being realistic but slow clunky people can become fast athletic people with smart training and commitment. I've seen it, others here have seen it, fuck, adarq himself was a slow-twitch long-distance guy before he started training for vert. There's plenty of examples and you haven't really given any convincing reason why you CAN'T be like that as well. Why not just change your journal name to 'chasing kingfish' then?

I'm sure you'll think I'm being naive and you seem pretty set in your opinion on this but there's no logical reason to hold self-limiting beliefs when it comes to athletic training. Every other aspect in life you need to be realistic, but not training. No one is going to laugh at you, you've literally got nothing to lose except realising what your actual potential is. Most people don't even scratch the surface.

i don't do RVJ but that doesn't mean im plyo deficient. i do so many volumes of low-mid intensity jump drills using jump ropes and hurdles. those + the actual SVJ drills.

i consecutive double leg jump 36" hurdles 8-12 in a row. those are my favorite aside from the 2-hand SVJ dunks.

even simple 1-min set of single leg jump rople drill (front to back, and side to side) will get you stiffer in just a couple of weeks of doing them consistently.

strong plyos eventually boost your squat too.

Oh, sorry man, I didn't know you still regularly did that stuff. When do you fit it in with your squatting?

vag · « **Reply #1869 on:** June 12, 2014, 05:37:05 am »

Why are you getting annoyed? People are trying to help you. Would you prefer it if it was a desolate journal and you had no feedback?
Also i refuse to believe that you called for help and nobody replied. But say it happened. So what? Maybe nobody noticed it. Maybe nobody disagreed with what you said back then. Also, you seem to react too intense and defensive to all advices that deviate from what you had in mind, so that may discourage people to interfere, but that may be just my wicked perception. Who cares anyway, now people noticed and they tried to contribute.
ANYWAY, back on topic, nobody told you to not squat, not do RSR, not chase 180squat@85kg. People were trying to tell you ( i think, i can't speak for everyone ) that it would be very beneficial if you did some work to preserve some movement efficiency and 'athleticism' while pushing your squat up.

Raptor · « **Reply #1870 on:** June 12, 2014, 06:14:48 am »

What the heck is "RSR"?

vag · « **Reply #1871 on:** June 12, 2014, 06:19:07 am »

Russian Squatting Routine, http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Weightlifting/RussianSquatProgramGenerator.html, he did it earlier this year with great success.

Raptor · « **Reply #1872 on:** June 12, 2014, 06:36:07 am »

If he does that, then maybe it's cool to focus almost entirely on that. I would still do a few very low level plyos though.

entropy · « **Reply #1873 on:** June 12, 2014, 06:49:54 am »

Training
FBS 1x132.5
BS 1x140, 4x132.5, 2x135, 5x125
OHP 3x60, 5x2x60

Squat notes:
Took a rep off my warmup sets and cut out a single. I like this much better. Warmup sequence was 3x100, 2x122.5, 1x132.5. Which works -- but perhaps i could progess it towards 2x125 and 1x135. And ultimately I should be looking at going from 3x100 to 2x130 as a warmup, finishing wiht a 140kg single. 120kg is just a stopgap measure while im weaker than i'd like to be.

Progressed my reps for 130kg by getting 4x132.5kg. It's possible i culd have tripled 135kg if i had attempted it before but that's ok for now. And the double was bullshit, so hard to get that 2nd rep, my form was awful and it didn't bode well for repping 125kg after that, only managing a hard 5 reps.

Upper notes:
Making 60kg my RSR inspired training weight, let's see if it works. The idea is to always use 60, and just try to build up reps and volume over time. When i've mastered it, i'll be stronger and hopefully bigger as well.

Other shit:
About 10 dunks. Skipping rope with one and two: show up a lack of something in my R leg, L leg finds it as easy as DL skips. CND: TM 7 mins @ 1incline, 8 kph. Had to stop at 7 minutes, my VMOs were cramping up like crazy.

LBSS · « **Reply #1874 on:** June 12, 2014, 11:45:50 am »

Quote from: entropy on June 12, 2014, 12:59:37 am

I dont get it. When the chinese coach guy told me to do ankle jumps etc in 2013, LBSS & co said lol wut. And when I asked specifically for advice for improving my athleticism (Jan-April) i got absolutely nothing, even though I was willing to try out anything. But when i decide to get back to what I think I care about (squat goals), suddenly everyone piles up giving their 2c and tell me im going about things the wrong way. So excuse me if i'm a bit annoyed.

don't remember the chinese coach thing but are you fucking serious about january? that's what you remember? there are pages and pages of t0ddday and raptor (and me and vag) trying to suggest things, encourage you to FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE in doing dot drills and line hops and the like, writing out sample programs. go back and look.

Adarq.org

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Author Topic: chasing athleticism (Read 1464974 times)

AGC

Re: chasing athleticism

entropy

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AGC

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Raptor

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seifullaah73

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Kingfish

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Raptor

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entropy

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AGC

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vag

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Raptor

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vag

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Raptor

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entropy

chasing athleticism -- W6D2

LBSS

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