Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 1464807 times)

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Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1845 on: June 10, 2014, 10:55:48 am »
0
In the winter? You're in Australia or what?

Do some depth jumps in the gym or ankle jumps, jump squats, very low volumes. 2x10 or so. Before squatting. It will also fire up the CNS a bit so they might benefit the squats if the volume is low enough.

Also KB swings work well to warm you up and potentiate that posterior chain.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1846 on: June 10, 2014, 11:12:25 am »
0
Yeah winter. Southern hemisphere reprezent !

I can do some of that stuff if you think it will help with reactivity. But then it's hard to tell where the gains came from. Last time i can say definitively i got 100% of my gains from squatting bc that's all i did. No plyos, sprints, ankle hops etc. But if i start mixing up with other stuff it will make it hard to tell apart cause and effect
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1847 on: June 10, 2014, 11:31:29 am »
+3
three things:

- the point about attribution is a fair one but i think you're using it as an excuse to avoid trying something new because it makes you nervous. you're a whole-hog kind of guy. so maybe go whole-hog on sprinting and jumping for a while. (more on this below.)
- the treadmill is not going to make you "more athletic," certainly not in 10 minute bursts. the only way that'd be the case is if you were grotesquely obese and out of shape, in which case any physical activity would make you more athletic. set the bar low enough...
- no idea what aussie winters are like -- as an american i always just imagine them being beautiful and sunny and everyone says "mate" a lot and drinks fosters on the beach with hot women in white bikinis everywhere, but that can't possibly be accurate -- but where i live it is a crappy time to be doing stuff like sprints that require you to be outside or in some kind of proper facility. so not wanting to do bounds and sprints and whatnot now is fair enough. winter is a good time for GPP. but when it gets nice out again, consider a real-live speed block. raptor is right, you're slow as fuck. getting faster can only benefit you.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1848 on: June 10, 2014, 12:57:56 pm »
+2
Just for the record, i am with raptor here. Good fail or bad fail , it is a fail and it fucks up your CNS plus increases injury risks. Not that you should never fail or that your progress with that programming was not jaw-dropping anyway, but imho failing too often is not optimal. You could have achieved even more.
According to your preferred style of training, i think you could benefit a lot going kingfish-style:
Not daily, you will AREG the frequency. But whenever you train, build up to a heavy single ( 90%+ ) and try to evaluate how much more you had in you like he does. When you repeat a couple of +20lbs sessions, advance. If you need the volume, add a back-off set, but look again how much he reduces the weight, he singles 450lbs and does back-off with 315. Also look at how patient he is to get a PR, he might wait for weeks or months. Finally look how he AREGs the whole thing, carefully deloading and waiting for his body to recover when beat, constantly attacking when strong.
Just another possibility to consider :D
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1849 on: June 10, 2014, 01:28:08 pm »
0
for much more on AREG, check out mike tuscherer. also, this kid izzy, who's using tuscherer's AREG method for power lifting at powerliftingtowin.com.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1850 on: June 10, 2014, 02:50:11 pm »
0
Just for the record, i am with raptor here. Good fail or bad fail , it is a fail and it fucks up your CNS plus increases injury risks. Not that you should never fail or that your progress with that programming was not jaw-dropping anyway, but imho failing too often is not optimal. You could have achieved even more.
According to your preferred style of training, i think you could benefit a lot going kingfish-style:
Not daily, you will AREG the frequency. But whenever you train, build up to a heavy single ( 90%+ ) and try to evaluate how much more you had in you like he does. When you repeat a couple of +20lbs sessions, advance. If you need the volume, add a back-off set, but look again how much he reduces the weight, he singles 450lbs and does back-off with 315. Also look at how patient he is to get a PR, he might wait for weeks or months. Finally look how he AREGs the whole thing, carefully deloading and waiting for his body to recover when beat, constantly attacking when strong.
Just another possibility to consider :D

This ^^^

I mean look, if you feel you need volume right now, and it's a good time to do it, by all means - go for it! Just pay more attention to recovery and you'll progress and it will also be less frustrating.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1851 on: June 10, 2014, 08:20:25 pm »
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Its not how it works though in practice when you're taking steroids. I don't know much about steroids but I do know the training is completely different from naturals. You do less intensity and more rep sets, pump work, like bodybuilding when juicing. It leads to more muscle growth that way, that's what i've read, have no direct experience obviously. I do know that I need a lot more volume and intensity to make gains. A lot of these guys don't tell you the full story of what supplements they had their guys on.

What are you talking about?  I don't get how you can slam raptor for quoting Internet wisdom and then come back with this is how steroids work because this is what I've read.  Nothing of the sort is true about steroids.  Additionally the magic enhanced recovery myth is greatly exaggerated as well.  Internet wisdom about steroids basically falls into two camps. 

Those people who like my old coach are bitter that they didn't make it past trials and are convinced that it's because everyone else was on steroids but them...  They propagate the myth that steroids drastically change the athlete, that an athlete on steroids is nothing like a natural athlete, that an athlete on steroids has to train differently and lift in a different manner than other athletes.  This rhetoric makes steroids seem especially out of place in competition because not only do they give an athlete an advantage in competition but they force him to change even the way he trains which really ruins that idea of sport/competition. 

On the other hand you have steroid users whose goal it is to justify steroids.  They repeat the mantra that steroids "just allow you to train harder".  They claim that steroids allow you to recover faster so you can train harder; this makes it seem as if they aren't cheating but rather using a tool that allows them to outwork their competition. 

In reality neither one of these camps provides any useful information.  The recovery thing is BS.  Do any of you train with females?   If steroids had such a drastic affect on recovery then females (who have 100x less androgens) would be sore for weeks after a workout.   This isn't the case however.  In reality steroids don't provide the athlete with magical recovery.  They don't change the way you lift and they have very little affect on training.  At many D1 programs all across the country men and women train with the same speed coach.   If anything the volumes might be reduced slightly for the higher-androgen faster men.   Steroids will allow you to put on more muscle which indirectly leads to more strength.  They allow you to do it without massive caloric surpluses that will also increase fat.  That's about it. 

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1852 on: June 10, 2014, 11:17:59 pm »
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Because I'm sure you want another opinion on this:

You've been through this conundrum before so whatever you're going to do back yourself 100% and you'll end up doing it. Listen to some of the guys on here and you may just get there faster or you may not.

At the end of the day all your body knows is stress and you need to manage the overall stress on your body better. Be it mental or physical. 
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1853 on: June 11, 2014, 05:33:49 am »
-2
Todday you're right, it's internet wisdom for better or worse. Also if you take anabolics and don't lift, you still gain significant FFM and lose FM. Add weight training to it and you improve gains. It's not a stretch to say training specifically for hypertrophy maximises gains of mass when juicing, hence the BB style training popularised by users.

My argument in light of the above paragraph was just that if you're juicing then it doesn't really matter so much how you train because the effects of the supplements will take place regardless. It's not that you have to train differently when juicing, it's that you don't have to train the same as a natural. If you're natural though you need to train better/harder/whatever you want to call it/ to make gains.

Coges, im really really skeptical of what these guys say/claim regarding reactivity. I don't believe it. IF i was to quantify my belief in it, i'd say maybe they're 2-3% correct. Unless I see proof i'm not going to change my mind, there is a lot of bs info in training, including jump training and otherwise on the internet. My default stance is that it's bs unless i become convinced otherwise. I will be try it out myself at some point, but right now i dont want to waste my time experimenting with something i don't think will be effective. Later on, when i've exhausted gains from squats, i'll give other things a try. But i haven't done that yet. Not really. Until i get back to squatting near 180kg while weighing a lean 85kg, i don't have any reason to try other stuff which will probably do close to nothing. My bias is my bias, i don't make excuses for it, that's how i see it.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1854 on: June 11, 2014, 06:10:26 am »
+3
Well, I have the perfect proof in the world for you:

Back in the day I was training on the track with a guy, we called him "the curly haired" or "Cretu" in Romanian.

And he was the slowest, weakest, most slow-twitch guy you have ever met. He would suck so badly that everybody was making fun of him. He was long as heck though (not out of the world long, but long).

And he was training for the high jump. And man he was weak. He was looking like you are right now moving around, but without your strength levels.

But he kept at it and continued to train on the track for the high jump. He did this for (now) I think ~10 years or so.

Wonder where he is now? Well...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_QattViB5I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_QattViB5I</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR3cJwCKILg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR3cJwCKILg</a>

I guess you can't become reactive afterall.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1855 on: June 11, 2014, 06:14:27 am »
+1
You might want to read this:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/reactiveability.html

You might want to focus on this part:
Quote
Don't Screw Up Your Natural Reactive Function

One way we screw up reactive function is by inactivity. This is illustrated by comparing the technical running ability of the typical 16 yr old Playstation freak to that of a kid on the playground. As we get older we become less and less active and "play less". Playgrounds and furniture are used in pursuit of the opposite sex instead of playtime. This process isn't helped any by the huge growth spurt that occurs during adolescence - a time when most start to become less active and when they really need to become more active.

Another way we can detract from our reactive functions is by engaging in too much of a good thing regarding strength training without regard to function. I know I've preached about the importance of strength but now I need to qualify a couple of things here. Strength training is capable of doing some very magnificent things when it comes to improving the level of force we can take in and put out in our movements, but, used haphazardly and without attention to function, it is also capable of changing our movements from what naturally should be a reflexive dominant movement into a muscular dominant movement with the result of this being inefficient movement and injuries.


Come on man, you know much better than that:
im really really skeptical of what these guys say/claim regarding reactivity. I don't believe it. IF i was to quantify my belief in it, i'd say maybe they're 2-3% correct. Unless I see proof i'm not going to change my mind, there is a lot of bs info in training, including jump training and otherwise on the internet.

Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1856 on: June 11, 2014, 06:22:56 am »
+1
And to add to that - what you're doing in the weightroom does not really promote hip extension and DOESN'T promote hip hyperextension AT ALL. And these two things are paramount to jumping and being athletic (and even healthy).

Could you do stuff for the actual hip extension and hyperextension in the gym? Well, yeah, you could do hip thrusts, you could do KB swings, you could do cleans and snatches.

But you could also do hip dominant plyo work (bounding, off both one and two legs) and jumping and sprinting in general. These also promote actual triple extension instead of the deceleration that occurs with squatting at the top.

So, the thing with the squat is yes, it's the best muscle builder exercise. But it's not THAT specific to jumping. It's an assistance exercise to jumping, running, sprinting etc. These are all displays of reactivity.

You don't get athletes going to a spot, taking 10 seconds to pause and take a standing vertical jump in a real life, based 100% on their squat strength. If you were training like Kingfish specifically for the standing VJ (although I don't know why, but still) - then yeah, squatting alone would kinda make sense.

But if you want to be an athlete, if you want to be able to USE all that strength in a "functional" manner - that is - jump and dunk in games, get past your defender, be able to change directions etc etc etc - then you gotta do reactive work. It's not that complicated to understand.
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1857 on: June 11, 2014, 06:23:29 am »
-1
It may make a small difference (say 2-5%) but that's about it. That's not a good return of investment. I know i'll get more out of squats than any of that plyomumbojumpo. It's an icing to the cake, something you do when you've tapped out from squatting. IMHO.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1858 on: June 11, 2014, 06:25:21 am »
+1
It may make a small difference (say 2-5%) but that's about it. That's not a good return of investment. I know i'll get more out of squats than any of that plyomumbojumpo. It's an icing to the cake, something you do when you've tapped out from squatting. IMHO.

Translation:

"I know you're right... but I don't want to do plyo work because I suck at it and I will get depressed by my display in it. So I'd rather continue strength training and pretend nothing works, so at least I have something else to blame besides myself".
Current PR status:

All time squat: 165 kg/Old age squat: 130 kg
All time deadlift: 184 kg/Old age deadlift: 140 kg
All time bench: 85 kg/Old age bench: 70kgx5reps
All time hip thrust (same as old age hip thrust): 160kgx5reps

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #1859 on: June 11, 2014, 06:27:13 am »
-1
I've tried that stuff before. Vag had me doing drop jumps. I did sprints. Regularly, 2-3x a week. For almost a year. What effect did they have? Probably nothing. But im annoyed because I can't prove that. It probably just kept me from training better and getting stronger. So that's why i dont want to muddle the waters now. So in future i can definitively say, see, i did this stupid gimmicky stuff and it didn't really make a difference.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat