Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 1464256 times)

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Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2880 on: May 08, 2016, 03:39:12 am »
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lmao . im nto suggesting turning a jumpshot into an ATG squat. I mean getting most of the contrib from closing the hip angle rather than upper body

Yeah mate I know that.

How much "extra" do you think you'll gain from closing the hip angle though? I still think you're looking in the wrong places for improvement.
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Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2881 on: May 08, 2016, 03:47:36 am »
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Either way if you get a benefit out of it then good on you. There's probably more technically sound people on here who can provide better advice though 
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2882 on: May 08, 2016, 03:52:06 am »
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lmao . im nto suggesting turning a jumpshot into an ATG squat. I mean getting most of the contrib from closing the hip angle rather than upper body

Yeah mate I know that.

How much "extra" do you think you'll gain from closing the hip angle though? I still think you're looking in the wrong places for improvement.

Either way if you get a benefit out of it then good on you. There's probably more technically sound people on here who can provide better advice though 

I get close to zero out of it at the moment.. but if i can get say 70-80% from lower body and the rest from wrist/arms ... maybe

to be clear i do think most good shooters get most of their contrib from lower body .. i dont mean to say they should be dipping lower .. i'm saying i shud be dipping lower .. not merely bending at the waist (dont care about that) but focusing on lowering the hips into the start of the shott
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2883 on: May 08, 2016, 04:04:26 am »
+5
Yeah idk how using more hips will help. Most top shooters have a slight lean or fade on their shot which makes involving the hips harder.

Also, probably not the best picture to illustrate the idea. Looks like he's in transition and has pulled up hence the hip angle.

You don't need to do heavy jump squats for shooting. Name 1 top shooter who has tremendous leg strength. Curry? Nash? Nowitzki? Kobe? I think you're looking in the wrong areas.

Looked over the tape of yesterdays shooting. I noticed 2 main things, 1)i shoot  the ball entirely from the wrist/arms and 2)with no hip involvement. So if i was a better shooter i'd be more hip and less wrist, this would make me a better player because 1 is affected easily by fatigue whereas 2 would not be. So i can improve my shooting considerably by .......... being ......... more....... hip ...... dominant.

OH MAN.  Ok, you should definitely not matter what you do make sure that you DO NOT work with a shooting coach.  Most shooting coaches will gladly tell you that their is some magic bullet to fix your should and cause you to do even more paralysis by analysis, get in your head even more, do some strange weight room movement that you think well carryover (seriously heavy jump squats provide specificity for shooting????) and you will end up 10x worse at shooting.   

Coges advice is spot on (except for the index finger thing) and you have ignored it completely and stuck to a claim you have no evidence for because... well because that's what you do. 

I have worked with NBA shooting coaches, former NBA players, and the honest ones will tell you the disappointing truth that shooting accuracy unfortunately doesn't come from changes in technique.  I mean just look at the great shooters of the NBA:  Reggie Miller shot the ball with two hands, Larry Bird and Manu Ginobili literally through the ball into the hoop, Steve Nash heaved the ball from his chest.  Magic Johnson had a set shot (and shot 90% from the line and 50% from the field)    There is no technique change that makes you a better shot.  What a shooting coach can teach you is the following:

1) Get a technique that is repeatable***.  Usually this is going to be one without a lot of wasted movement - but again it doesn't really matter as much as it is repeatable for you.  There are tricks to getting YOUR technique more repeatable (maybe the index finger cue works for Coges), I find that a quarter between the thumb and index finger helps players whose shot is not repeatable because sometimes there thumb is involved (giving a gyroball effect) and some sometimes it isn't.  Of course despite the fact that most coaches don't like "thumbing" it's a problem mostly because it isn't repeated - Tim Hardaway Sr. thumbed every single shot and was a great shooter at the end of his career.

2) Practice the shot a lot.  We have seen old guys with very little strength hit 100s of shots in a row by practicing OVER and OVER and OVER.  If you stick with a shot technique and practice it - you too will do this.

3) Practice shots rather than shooting around.  Get a rebounder and have him feed you balls that you catch and dribble and right left plant and then shoot.  If you run off a lot of screens and catch and shoot then practice this.  Practicing shooting a lot will make you good at shooting in practice - to make shots in games you need to actually practicing shooting off the catch/dribble (however you play). 

*** Here is the exception.  If you are a high level player and you shoot the ball in traffic you may need a shot that is not only repeatable but also one you can get off.  This might require change to technique - but it's not for accuracy - it's to get the ball off over or before the defense comes.  Again there is more than one way to solve this.  Kobe Bryant has a high release point and shoots at the top of his jump (allowing him to shoot over defenders), Steph Curry has a completely non-textbook low release (textbook wise Klay Thompson's shot is far better) BUT releases his shot so fast that the defense isn't there yet.  Curry, cannot back a player down, spin and then rise up over players with his shooting style (but this minor inability doesn't matter much because he has practically given up shooting two point shots). 

You are COMPLETELY off base with the hips argument, think of the actual muscles involved in the shot and how different people accomplish it..

1) Look at women shoot.  Completely different shot than most men.  The hips and legs of women are much closer to being on par as far as strength of men... The upper body is much weaker.   A lot of women shoot a truly hip-dominant shot where they pop the ball up using their hips off the ground.  You do not want this shot.   

2) The hips need to either rotate and provide lift or they can produce horizontal power when used in the air (sweep and sway).   It's not practical or repeatable to jump extremely high on your shot (think fatigue and small spaces), so you don't need to execute maximal jumps on every shot. 

The one time players do use a lot of hip action is when they shoot at the top of their jump (think Kobe Bryant rising up and shooting a turnaround from 10 feet behind the three point line).  This is because if they find themselves floating very far from the hoop and they don't have the ground with which to make force they can keep the same wrist action and supply extra power by popping their hips (you have seen this - feet go forward but goes back).   This does provide more horizontal force but it doesn't provide vertical force so it lowers the shot angle which makes it harder to hit.  Not surprisingly players are less accurate from father away....

All except for Steph Curry that is.  Steph Curry is unique in that he doesn't adjust with his hips (which by the way are far more fatigued at the end of the game than the wrists) but actually adjusts with his arms and shot angle (the farther he is the more he shoots like a weak little kid who needs to heave it up to make it).   This is pretty unique and somewhat incredible but incredibly effective.  It goes against shooting dogma which says only kids are allowed to shoot the ball from below their head but it sure seems currys ability to keep his hips/legs doing the same thing every time and adjusting with his arms and shot angle is far more effective than anything else...

Bottom line is I haven't seen you shoot (other than free throws) but I don't see anything wrong with your shot.  If you are strong enough to shoot the ball from the three point line in and are not accurate enough you need to practice and you need to practice smart real-game shots.  You need to do it over and over again and you need to settle on mechanics that are repeatable for you.  If you want to release with flat hands (like Jordan) that's fine.  If you want to do what the call the shooters fork (three fingers down and thumb and pinky up) that's fine, if you want to to release with thumb and index finger touching that's also fine.   It doesn't matter.  It needs to be form that you can get off for your position in game (some combination of quick release or release height) and it needs to be something that is mechanically not so complicated that you cannot repeat it.  That's it.  Then you need to practice.  A lot.   AND - you need to settle on a bw.  Massive changes in BW will KILL your shot.  Ray Allen stayed within 6 pounds of a certain weight for years and years.   Going from 200lbs to 165lbs and back to 190lbs is a recipe for being a terrible shooter.  Pick a weight.  Stick with it.  Shoot.  Keep shooting.  You will be fine. 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 04:09:13 am by T0ddday »

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2884 on: May 08, 2016, 05:07:23 am »
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lmao . im nto suggesting turning a jumpshot into an ATG squat. I mean getting most of the contrib from closing the hip angle rather than upper body

Yeah mate I know that.

How much "extra" do you think you'll gain from closing the hip angle though? I still think you're looking in the wrong places for improvement.

Either way if you get a benefit out of it then good on you. There's probably more technically sound people on here who can provide better advice though 

I get close to zero out of it at the moment.. but if i can get say 70-80% from lower body and the rest from wrist/arms ... maybe

to be clear i do think most good shooters get most of their contrib from lower body .. i dont mean to say they should be dipping lower .. i'm saying i shud be dipping lower .. not merely bending at the waist (dont care about that) but focusing on lowering the hips into the start of the shott

I get what you're saying about the start of the shot and getting lower. That's more about the hopping into the shot as opposed to a 1-2 step.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2885 on: May 08, 2016, 05:08:42 am »
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@toddday great post.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2886 on: May 08, 2016, 05:09:20 am »
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Good points but i still think i need to get more out of my lower body. Just wanna point out that I dont do jump squats ONLY for my jumpshot .. for everything .. assistance to my push press, assistant manager to to my jumping etc .. it's all assistance for something else, assistance to assisatnce, maybe my push press helps my jump squat .. which helps my vertical on my lying pushups

also my knees never like dipping into a jumpshot. maybe its a conditioning thing and they need to get used to that
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2887 on: May 08, 2016, 05:17:21 am »
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Re curry, i envy his wingspan, or lack of .. 6'3" is perfect for his shot. I shoot like curry except i have longer arms and my shot is garbage as a result :( mine is around 6'7" iirc


http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Stephen-Curry-1170/stats/

edit, also ratios of arm segments are more favourable not just the length of the total arm
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 05:46:39 am by maxent »
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T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2888 on: May 08, 2016, 05:46:43 am »
+1
Good points but i still think i need to get more out of my lower body. Just wanna point out that I dont do jump squats ONLY for my jumpshot .. for everything .. assistance to my push press, assistant manager to to my jumping etc .. it's all assistance for something else, assistance to assisatnce, maybe my push press helps my jump squat .. which helps my vertical on my lying pushups

also my knees never like dipping into a jumpshot. maybe its a conditioning thing and they need to get used to that

The question remains.... why????  Watch magic johnsons set shot.  It may have fallen out of style over the years but it was highly accurate.  You do not need to get more out of your legs to shoot accurately and tinkering with how you shoot because you don't like how it looks is a recipe for absolute disaster.   I have seen it over and over and over again.  Good shooters blame missed shots on bad nights, bad shooters blame missed shots on not using their legs enough or some mechanical mistake.  The only shots I have seen you shoot on tape look fine.  You may be a beginner athletically but your not a beginner in basketball.  You have a shot.  All this stuff - the leg dip, the movement, this is about rhythm and comfort - that's it.   If Curry is given a completely wide open shot he might dribble once, left right and rise up in rhythm, this is HIS rhythm, you copying it won't help you. 

You have to understand curry (and most nba guys) started shooting very very young.  Even I started shooting seriously when I was about 7 or 8... When your that young you "shoot like a girl".  You use that same hip drove that you use on a push press to get the ball to the hoop.  The ball comes out of your hands as you leave the ground.  This isn't good form - it's just necessary for weak little kids to get the ball to the hoop...

As you get older you no longer need to drive the ball off the ground with this massive leg drive... But what remains is the naturally rhythm and feel for shooting the ball on the rise.  Some people try to train this out of kids (imo big mistake) but under no circumstances should it be trained into kids.  It's just a sign of what age someone started truly working on their shot... If they were little kids they may still have this vestigial comfort the involves shooting the ball on the rise.... But this isn't hip involvement - hip involvement is observed in either shooting the ball off the ground (women and small kids or shooting the ball at the top of the jump).

You can see proof of this in the players who became great shooters despite not shooting while young... Tim Duncan, Serge Ibaka, etc.  None of them shoot on the rise, they either shoot flat footed, at the top of their jump or coming down.   This is fine. 

I know you won't listen but if I can give you one piece of advice as a basketball player it is please don't start tinkering with your shot at this stage.  Shooting is one of the toughest mind challenges their is.  I know you quickly develop theories and abandon exercises and have a scatterbrained approach to athletic training (eg bounds make me sprint better - they are magic.  Bounds suck I can't improve fast enough and they take away from my squat gains, glute thrusts are great, no they suck, RDLs are useless, omg what do I do, I got it figured out I need this new crazy idea and it involves losing more weight). 

But despite all this the damage you can do when you adopt this mindset to shooting is far far far worse.  Your coming to SoCal?  Go to shot zone for a week.  Still to a comfortable repeatable shot.  Believe in it and don't question it.  Try to make as many shots out of 500 as you can per day.  You will be best if you believe in this...  If you don't believe me I'll get a former NBA player to tell you the exact same thing.

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2889 on: May 08, 2016, 06:20:52 am »
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BS 6x110 (legs too shaky to do much more than a warmup :(  ......)
RDL 8x150, 0Fx180, 0Fx160 ... whatevs
BP 3x90 (LPR)
WCU 3x103, 5x98.5

BW: 177.5 (LPR)

Notes:
Last workout in OZ .. flying out tonight.. pretty ordinary lol. Still thinkign bout doing some hip thrusts so i feel like it wasnt a complete waste of a training day .. but idk. Will prob hit a gym tues in LA and then off to yosemite for the rest of the week .. no lifting til the following week
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2890 on: May 08, 2016, 06:53:27 am »
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Have a great holiday mate.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

Mikey

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2891 on: May 08, 2016, 07:20:51 am »
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@toddday great post.

X2!

Shooting is a skill. Skills get improved through practice. Iverson was regarded as a chucker but he still averaged around 30 points a game.

Have a great holiday ;D
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2892 on: May 08, 2016, 07:26:07 am »
+1
I just want to clarify im not talking about a LARGE hip angle. It's actually quite acute BUT .. it's it's explosive/athletic/powerful .. think of a shallow jump squat (ignore the weight for now). IT's not deep! Think of a perfect push press, it's not a deep knee bend but a powerful controlled one to initiate the movement. THink of a jumpshot, it's not a big hip angle but a small powerful one. I'm sure we would all agree if we stated our assumptions and the limited range of the angle.

Again please dont get hung up in thinking i'm trying to go for a big dip .. far from it .. just a bigger one than i do normally .. cos that's almost upright. If you saw vid of me shooting you'd agree there is something off in that my setup and release is too upright. I can speak to other shooters mentioned who will have their peculariaties but im not a magic johnson archetype .. have more in common with the build type of most basketball players who do manage to have much nicer form. I shud be able to acquire that .. not going to accept my broken technique which is so unreliable. I get it, if you have ok mechanics, just practice loads, but im not sure i have that.

I need to compare my form to other lefties.. eg manu, harden, etc .. lefties have such nice form .. i hate mine .. self loathing lol

will try to write a proper reply later ..


@toddday great post.

X2!

Shooting is a skill. Skills get improved through practice. Iverson was regarded as a chucker but he still averaged around 30 points a game.

Have a great holiday ;D
Thank you both!   :D

« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 07:27:51 am by maxent »
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.

T0ddday

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2893 on: May 08, 2016, 07:43:21 am »
+1
Comparing a push press to a jump shot.... Smh.  Sorry to be a jerk but you really just don't understand biomechanics at all.  If a shot had anything to do w a push press it would travel so fast it's ridiculous.  You think med ball tosses are useless of course but watch the hip pop that accelerates the ball... Now watch the currys jump shot.  Notice anything in common... Neither do I because curry doesn't accelerate the ball with his hips. 

You think you should shoot like players other than Magic Johnson cause your built like them?  First of all aren't you built w female fat deposits?  Who else shares this build?  Second you think it's based on the build?  Are you serious? 

Why don't you just come off it and admit that you have come up w an idea.  You like it.  No matter what evidence disproves it you are going to stick w it.  You have made one athletic advance in all your training and it came from losing fat.  That's stage one.  You won't get to stage two because you insist on being a biomechanics expert...

I want to stress that I'm not here claiming I know more than you about anything in particular - except that I'm a better judge of you than you are.  Do you know why people don't act as their own lawyer, why they don't act as their own trainer, or why self diagnoses is a failure?   We are own worst judges.  That's the beauty of the forum.  You can avoid the pitfalls of bad ideas... Or reinforce them.  Your choice. 

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2894 on: May 08, 2016, 07:47:51 am »
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lets not introduce another variable into this analysis lol. fat isn't been considered at the moment. btw the object isnt to accelerate the basketball as much as possible. they talk about a soft release, high arc, all those things are more important in an accurate shot. I did read a book on this by the way..

http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Basketball-John-J-Fontanella/dp/0801885132

not the be all and end all of shooting mechanics .. but it's a good start. theres a pdf available online on
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 07:51:07 am by maxent »
Training for balance in GPP and SPP.